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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will you defend your family against attack or let them be killed?

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 Re:

Quote:
i am not called to follow that Christ



If I had made that statement I might be troubled after writing it. Are you?

Did you want a chance to re-write that?

 2009/10/13 18:30
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi hmmhmm...

For my part (and in regard to the original question), I am not at all concerned about defending [i]myself[/i]. That is not to say that I wouldn't do what I can to avoid physical persecution. Jesus walked through the crowd when he was about to thrown from a cliff (Luke 4:28-30). Paul invoked his Roman citizenship in order to avoid an [i]unlawful[/i] beating. However, the theme of this particular thread is in regard to protecting your family.

I believe that I would protect my family from an attacker as it is my duty to look after them. I personally see nothing from Scripture that would cause me to neglect their defense in the face of attack.

Now, the passage that seems to be quoted the most often in regard to this concept is the one verse from Matthew 5:39. In this passage, we are told to "resist not evil." Jesus continued by telling those who are slapped on one cheek to "turn to him the other also." Somehow, there is a link made between this command to not react with vengeance and an outright prohibition to protect the weak or a family member.

Yet the passage is incomplete. That same passage says that if someone sues you, to give him even MORE than what he is seeking (verse 40). If one person wants you to go a mile, then you should go to (verse 41). We are to give to anyone who asks, and to not turn away from anyone who wants to borrow something from us (verse 42). Oddly, the subsequent passages are seldom followed to the "letter of the law." Some believers are downright stingy with their belongings! Some are downright stingy with "being right" when it really comes down to a matter of pride.

In fact, believers were actually suing one another within a few decades of Jesus's statement! When Paul learned about believers in Corinth taking other believers before unjust judges, he explained that they should have first gone to the Church to judge between these wrongs. However, he expressed this disappointment by the very fact that they had tried to use the secular law in order to determine what was right or wrong (I Corinthians 6:1-8). Paul explained that it would have been better to simply "take the wrong" (I Corinthians 6:7).

Personally (and not in regard to you, brother Hmmhmm), I am disappointed by some of the reactions of certain brethren who simply disagree with others in this regard. There have been some "non-resistant" brethren who aggressively resisted against those who disagree with them. While they don't use swords or guns, they use words that are unbecoming to the Body of Christ. Should we be so quick to speak and condemn brethren for their prayerful views? This has been done in public threads and even more vigorously in private messages. I think that this should be of great concern. As many people have said through the years, we can agree to disagree. However, we need to be VERY careful about dismissing the faith in Christ, relationship with Christ or spiritual maturity of others merely because we disagree on a matter.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/13 18:39Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

orthodox wrote:
Quote:
I am glad God spoke to you, i dont know how many shootings and killings happened in America under a year, but i know it is many thousands, compared to other countries america is many 100% higher. So many lives could be spared if there where no guns



Let's all take a moment and thank God that hmmhmm is not in political power in America.

Please consider the following:

It is not individuals who privately own guns that are responsible for massacres throughout history. It is tyrannical governments who do not fear the people but run rough shod over them and annihilate opposition.

I'm with Thomas Jefferson on this one:

"When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

You think Colombine was bad...you should have been in Cambodia with Pol Pot. You might as well be begging for a Russia under Stalin.

Anyway...it was Darwinism that was partially responsible for Colombine, not gun ownership.

I like the bumper sticker that says "Blaming guns for Colombine is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'Donnell being fat."




may I ask why other then perhaps hunting, would you as a child of the most high and sovereign God need a weapon to defend yourself? I dont blaim the guns, it is people that kill people, and the film you mention also says canada has as many guns but about 90% less killings, i dont know why, but my guess would be it is the "american cowboy" spirit that demands "my rights" no matter what, my comfort, my security, if it is threatened ill shot you. But i may be very off and maybe very wrong, but to me God is all mighty, all powerful, all able to save me and my family, to me it would be little faith for me to go get a gun to protect my family, if God allows someone to hurt me or my family my Gun wont stop that, God has allowed it, when we belieive the bible, not just say we do, but when we really believe rom 8:28 we will never fear what any man can do to us. Not even death, "who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"

or as that man said in that movie, they will take his gun out off his cold dead hands, he trusted his Gun, i trust my God.

If i am wrong i thank you for your patience towards me.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/13 18:40Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

hello chris, i am not saying we should not protect our loved ones God has trusted to us to do care for, i am saying i am not so sure we should shot them at sight. Myself would not have a gun, so i guess if someone came i would try wrestle them down call the police and try share the gospel with them. If they would over power me and kill my children and wife and me, i would have to say God allowed him to do that.... so we go off to a better place. It aint that bad :-)

But i cant give an ultimate answer for any off you, just that [b]my[/b] interpretation and understanding of scripture, that from time to time have been known to be wrong, once or twice maybe :-) killing someone is not really what Jesus was about, so if i am following him how can I? i just dont get it... i have a hard time shoting people i am supposed to love, and yes not protecting my family show i dont really love them, but i trust God with them and I trust him to protect me and guide me if he where to allow such a situation to occur, i trust he gives grace to every situation we encounter.

Should that include shooting someone, then may it be so, but right now, i cant see that in scripture, or in our Lords leading.

I do respect and love you brethren, I am just concerned when the brothers and sisters of our lord says it is ok to shoot people under special conditions, and for a moment i will accept that thought.

Lets say it is ok to shot someone in this situation, in any other situation it would be sin right? are there other sins that in special situations are ok? myself have sometimes struggled financially, there have been days when we have not known what we should feed our seven children for breakfast the next day, in a way that to is a life threatening situation, if that would continue for days someone might die or get sick, would it be ok to steal then? it sin otherwise when i am doing it for money, but if it benefits my family? not only benefits but may actually save their life?

or you in america? let say you dont have health care insurance? your child gets sick, you ost your job, your child will die if you dont get money, according to your reasoning, if you dont get that money you dont love your child? could i rob a bank and that would be ok? to me it is faulty thinking somewhere in the line of reasoning. From start with these types of questionings.

we know it is wrong to kill another man, we know it is wrong not helping those we love and have been entrusted to care for.

I dont know how God will do it but i trust him to help.

I hope you can sense some of what i try express , i am not as good with words as you chris, but there is much that just dont sit right with how easy many seem to view this issue to shot another life, end it , end a souls opportunity to be with christ for eternity, and just go "shot first ask later" , to me this is not really christlike, i dont know as i said before what Christ would have done, but i am hesitant to say he would shot them, would he just stand and watch? no i doubt that to, he was not such a man he would do that either.

i trust Gods spirit would lead us to do as Christ would have done, whatever that would be.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/13 18:58Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
I am disappointed by some of the reactions of certain brethren who simply disagree with others in this regard. There have been some "non-resistant" brethren who aggressively resisted against those who disagree with them. While they don't use swords or guns, they use words that are unbecoming to the Body of Christ. Should we be so quick to speak and condemn brethren for their prayerful views? This has been done in public threads and even more vigorously in private messages. I think that this should be of great concern. As many people have said through the years, we can agree to disagree. However, we need to be VERY careful about dismissing the faith in Christ, relationship with Christ or spiritual maturity of others merely because we disagree on a matter.




I think you are right in that brother, thank you for sharing that concern and warning. God bless you Chris.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/13 19:01Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

The reason Jesus never did anything when they whipped and hung him on the cross was because that was the Father's will, like wise when he made the whip and drove them out and turned over the money changers tables.

There is no difference because they are both the will of the Father.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear.

Why did Peter a disciple of Jesus have a sword if the message was non-resistance? If Jesus message was one of non-resistance why was Peter so ready to use it? Why without any hesitation did he lop of the mans ear in the defense of Jesus.

John 18:20 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Jesus makes Peter aware that this is the will of the Father and to sheath the sword.

Jesus had one focus and that is doing the Will of the Father. If that meant being violent in the temple then he did it, if that meant giving his life up and being beaten, whipped and mocked and hung on a cross he did it.

Also consider Paul who was willing to use the might of the Roman Army when he found out there was plot against his life Acts 23:12-33.


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Colin Murray

 2009/10/13 19:11Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

orthodox wrote:
Quote:
i am not called to follow that Christ



If I had made that statement I might be troubled after writing it. Are you?

Did you want a chance to re-write that?



after praying i dont, I am not sure you understand what i meant? english is my second language and sometimes my words to few and not the clearest. But i am not called to follow Christ as a judge and pour out his wrath on this wicked world. I may be wrong but do please correct me and show me if so.

Am i wrong in saying the Christ we are called to follow is the Christ that walked the earth as a human leaving us an example? actually we are commanded to walk as he walked as I understand the bible. when he comes back again he comes as a judge, i am not called to judge in this life, i may be in the next, judge angels etc, but that is up to him to decide.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/13 19:21Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus had one focus and that is doing the Will of the Father. If that meant being violent in the temple then he did it, if that meant giving his life up and being beaten, whipped and mocked and hung on a cross he did it.



I agree most of what you share brother, being in Gods will is the thing, if it means defending or if it means to die. God help us discern his will at all times. even if it means death and suffering. The apostle Paul also suffered much and except the one time you mention he did not defend himself with a sword. But as you said, seek the fathers will and i am convinced he will help us if it is his will we should live, is it his will we should die no gun in the world would help us.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/13 19:25Profile









 Re:

Hmmmm, you write.......

"but i trust God with them and I trust him to protect me and guide me if he where to allow such a situation to occur, i trust he gives grace to every situation we encounter."

Amen brother, I believe that the key word is trust.....Frank

 2009/10/13 19:54
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brethren,

Jesus said he that liveth by the sword dieth by the sword. The apostles did not carry carnal weapons to use against others but their weapons were mighty through God. The apostles were sent by Jesus to do as he had done and Jesus didn’t use carnal weapons. We are all called to be apostles. We are sent by our Lord Jesus Christ the chief Apostle to reconcile others in his stead. We are to be filled with the Holy Ghost and use the weapons of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is powerful and the only protection we need to carry out the work of God on this earth. God can send angels; God can stop a man in his tracks. We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. God is our shield and our exceedingly great reward. We are to go in the name of the Lord.

To now answer the question on this thread, I want everyone to know that God protects my family. He protects them when I’m not looking and when I’m not around them, he is there. I have entrusted my family to God for his protection and salvation. God being my helper I would walk right into harms way for my wife and family believing God and his spiritual weapons. I would pray in the strong name of Jesus believing God can stop a man and even save a man by the power of his Spirit. The scripture tells us that we are to be his witnesses and we need to be full of the Holy Spirit with power to be enabled to be effective for God. I think that this is the problem, when we think of carnal weapons, it is not knowing the spirits power to those who trust in God. The bible says in eph 3:20 that he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think according to the power that worketh in us. Those who don’t know his power will resort to carnal weapons. We must be filled with the Holy Ghost in order to walk the way Jesus walked.

Blessings to all!

 2009/10/13 21:46Profile





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