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TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Also, before continuing, it should be noted that this passage is paralleled by Deut. 32:6.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/10/8 9:01Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?



Greetings Brother,

So in light of this quote from you, I guess your view of the atonement is Calvinistic? I thought that the universal atonement position taught Christ's blood was shed for everyone?

I just wanted to get this clarification before continuing.

With care in Christ,
Taylor



ill clarify, he bought those who will according to the verse i quoted will be brought to "swift destruction", and speaking two verses later he says of these who are bought "and their damnation slumbereth not".

So i guess i dont hold a calvinistic view point, i guess i hold a universal sort of view on it, although i think we need to define what we mean by those terms since different people use the terms with different meaning. It seems to me they where bought by Christ, or by God through Christs blood, and yet their damnation slumbereth not.

So it seems to me there is a possibility to once be purchased by God, and yet be damned in the end.

and about universal atonement, i believe all who believers and repent and trust in Christ finished work will be saved, not as in once upon a time but in continuance, some who do not continue i am sure where never born again to start with, others i think where but fell away, due to different reasons and choices they made. Yet I believe God is very much able to keep those who come to Him, i guess i doubt eternal security for those who stop doing that.

hope that clarify some


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/10/8 10:06Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

trueblue wrote:
Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [/b]


But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.

Gods grace and peace to all


G`day brother..well if you hold to the view of unlimited atonement then you can assuredly say that the Lord indeed did buy them

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
:-)



If Christ; (and I say this with much reverence and fear) died for the whole world to mean/include every single individual-then on the behalf of God in eternity, from the foundation of the world-would he of his own will need to : forknow, elect, and predestinate? If Christ died for all-then all are purchased-but then that means that "ALL" are forknown, elect, and predestined.

The "ALL" of 2 Cor 5:14 is the "ALL" of- " ALL that my Father hath given me, shall come to me"

John 6:37 ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And it is quite clear that "ALL" as in every single man/person individually will NOT be coming to Christ-as to that there are many in Hell now, who never came to him. It is also quite clear that God the Father did not "give" every single man individually" to Christ-as to Christ speaks of only giving his life for "my sheep"-but never mentions giving his life for "the goats".

Joh 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life FOR the sheep.

Joh 10:15 -As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life FOR the sheep.

And who would the sheep be-as later in Scripture, the Holy Spirit would reveal through the writing of Paul:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, [b]even as Christ also loved the CHURCH[/b], [b]and GAVE himself for "IT"[/b];

John 3:16 For God [b]so loved the WORLD, that he GAVE his only begotten Son[/b], that whosoever believeth in him.....

(Who is it that believeth in him-the members of the Church IN the world)

Are these two verses at variance with one another?No, God forbid-but rather they reveal each other

I believe I can say this with a clear conscience before God in all sincerity without twisting of perverting the scriptures : God so loved the Church, that was scattered ALL over the world(just like the how Israel was scattered all over the world, but God still loved them and promised them because of father Abraham that he would bring them together in ONE land-his land-both Jew and Gentile in the Church)

Old Testament speaking God only KNEW/loved the Jews, the Children of Israel-they were the only people as a people/nation that God revealed himself to.

Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2 [b]You only have I known of all the families of the earth[/b]: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God [b]hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth[/b]. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved YOU, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

In John 3:16 you have Christ, speaking to Jews who knew that God had ONLY revealed himself to the Children of Israel, but knew that the LOST SHEEP of Israel was at that time scattered ALL OVER THE WORLD-thus when Christ says " For God so loved the world..."-he did two things to those Jews he was talking to:

1. Gave them hope of the redemption of their family members that were NOT in Jerusalem-that God would find and deliver them wherever they be because of his promise to Abraham

2. Revealed to them that the time had come where God's love would be manifested and revealed to "the world"-meaning those (some) who are NOT Jews-but to include Gentiles, who were once their enemies and in this world WITHOUT hope. Or in other words, he let them know that he had "other SHEEP NOT of THIS fold"

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And what is the Glorious verse before v16:

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I do not understand how people can or will deny "limited atonement"-when the Bible opens up with the Children of Israel being the only people to have forgiveness and pardon of sin-and their sins to be covered on the day of atonement-this same theme is carried out in the New Testament-because the New Covenant is for the House of Israel and the Tribe of Judah ( What I mean by that is, that the New Covenant/Testament is a Covenant made with/for the Children of Israel as a Nation-but not to Gentiles as a nation) and includes: Forknown, Elect, and predestinated individual Gentiles (picked out by God according to his OWN free will)

Why do I say "individual gentiles"-because what did Christ say :

John 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: [b]and he calleth his own sheep by NAME[/b], and leadeth them out.............. 16 And other sheep(Gentiles, which I know by name as well) I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So, that being said: "ALL" the sheep that belong to the Church from the foundation of the world-because God hath known them by name and given them to his Son by name-make up the Church ALL over the world that God so loved that he gave his only begotton Son for.

This, is just the way that I understand it, and the way that I currently believe it-it doesn't mean that I am trying to force what I believe on any one here on SI-and neither am I implying that I cannot be wrong in what God hath allowed me to present here. I pray God's Grace-and if anyone see any error, or perhaps any scripture that I have used without knowledge-then by all means correct me, and bring truth to my eyes.

But I; at this moment-believe I have sincerely displayed what I believe to be truth in scripture without perverting scripture.

 2009/10/8 10:23Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 63


 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Quote:

trueblue wrote:
Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [/b]


But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.

Gods grace and peace to all


G`day brother..well if you hold to the view of unlimited atonement then you can assuredly say that the Lord indeed did buy them

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
:-)



If Christ; (and I say this with much reverence and fear) died for the whole world to mean/include every single individual-then on the behalf of God in eternity, from the foundation of the world-would he of his own will need to : forknow, elect, and predestinate? If Christ died for all-then all are purchased-but then that means that "ALL" are forknown, elect, and predestined.

The "ALL" of 2 Cor 5:14 is the "ALL" of- " ALL that my Father hath given me, shall come to me"

John 6:37 ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And it is quite clear that "ALL" as in every single man/person individually will NOT be coming to Christ-as to that there are many in Hell now, who never came to him. It is also quite clear that God the Father did not "give" every single man individually" to Christ-as to Christ speaks of only giving his life for "my sheep"-but never mentions giving his life for "the goats".

Joh 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life FOR the sheep.

Joh 10:15 -As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life FOR the sheep.

And who would the sheep be-as later in Scripture, the Holy Spirit would reveal through the writing of Paul:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, [b]even as Christ also loved the CHURCH[/b], [b]and GAVE himself for "IT"[/b];

John 3:16 For God [b]so loved the WORLD, that he GAVE his only begotten Son[/b], that whosoever believeth in him.....

(Who is it that believeth in him-the members of the Church IN the world)

Are these two verses at variance with one another?No, God forbid-but rather they reveal each other

I believe I can say this with a clear conscience before God in all sincerity without twisting of perverting the scriptures : God so loved the Church, that was scattered ALL over the world(just like the how Israel was scattered all over the world, but God still loved them and promised them because of father Abraham that he would bring them together in ONE land-his land-both Jew and Gentile in the Church)

Old Testament speaking God only KNEW/loved the Jews, the Children of Israel-they were the only people as a people/nation that God revealed himself to.

Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2 [b]You only have I known of all the families of the earth[/b]: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God [b]hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth[/b]. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved YOU, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

In John 3:16 you have Christ, speaking to Jews who knew that God had ONLY revealed himself to the Children of Israel, but knew that the LOST SHEEP of Israel was at that time scattered ALL OVER THE WORLD-thus when Christ says " For God so loved the world..."-he did two things to those Jews he was talking to:

1. Gave them hope of the redemption of their family members that were NOT in Jerusalem-that God would find and deliver them wherever they be because of his promise to Abraham

2. Revealed to them that the time had come where God's love would be manifested and revealed to "the world"-meaning those (some) who are NOT Jews-but to include Gentiles, who were once their enemies and in this world WITHOUT hope. Or in other words, he let them know that he had "other SHEEP NOT of THIS fold"

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And what is the Glorious verse before v16:

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I do not understand how people can or will deny "limited atonement"-when the Bible opens up with the Children of Israel being the only people to have forgiveness and pardon of sin-and their sins to be covered on the day of atonement-this same theme is carried out in the New Testament-because the New Covenant is for the House of Israel and the Tribe of Judah ( What I mean by that is, that the New Covenant/Testament is a Covenant made with/for the Children of Israel as a Nation-but not to Gentiles as a nation) and includes: Forknown, Elect, and predestinated individual Gentiles (picked out by God according to his OWN free will)

Why do I say "individual gentiles"-because what did Christ say :

John 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: [b]and he calleth his own sheep by NAME[/b], and leadeth them out.............. 16 And other sheep(Gentiles, which I know by name as well) I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So, that being said: "ALL" the sheep that belong to the Church from the foundation of the world-because God hath known them by name and given them to his Son by name-make up the Church ALL over the world that God so loved that he gave his only begotton Son for.

This, is just the way that I understand it, and the way that I currently believe it-it doesn't mean that I am trying to force what I believe on any one here on SI-and neither am I implying that I cannot be wrong in what God hath allowed me to present here. I pray God's Grace-and if anyone see any error, or perhaps any scripture that I have used without knowledge-then by all means correct me, and bring truth to my eyes.

But I; at this moment-believe I have sincerely displayed what I believe to be truth in scripture without perverting scripture.
[/quote

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.



If i can, may i quote from one of our church fathers!!

"by the word many He means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"..John Calvin,Calvins commentaries,vol. 7,p 508

 2009/10/8 10:42Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.

Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.



 2009/10/8 10:48Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 63


 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.

Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.






Hey bro..so what your saying according to this logic that according to rom 5:19.."So by one mans Disobedience Many were made sinners"...(its only a lot,not every) etc??

 2009/10/8 11:05Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 63


 Re:

Please let me explain that i do not want to sound condescending towards any of my brethren in this thread.It is with unwavering passion that i whole heartily believe that Christ has made atonement for all..but all will not come.Let me say to those brethren who state that they believe in limited atonement, yet believe that those who have denied the Lord that bought them, are damned...is this not a waste of the Blood??.Why do i support unlimited atonement,well for a start Christ either shed all of his blood or some of his blood..you cannot chop and cut!!.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.

Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.

 2009/10/8 11:36Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

trueblue wrote:
Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.

Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.






Hey bro..so what your saying according to this logic that according to rom 5:19.."So by one mans Disobedience Many were made sinners"...(its only a lot,not every) etc??



Yes, that is what I am saying-yet to this extent. The "many" that were made sinners, are those whom God FORKNEW in Christ in from the foundation of the world in Adam BEFORE Adam's fall. Like when Paul says I'am crucified with Christ"-well, Christ is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (in eternity) thus, that is when Paul (and all Christians) were crucified with him in eternity as well, but to reveal itself in the fullness of time. Since we (the elect were in Adam at one point) but God forknowing us in him before his fall-that is when the "Many" were MADE sinners (those whom God forknew but because we were in Adam, and Adam was at one point righteous-which while we were in him BEFORE his fall, so were we)But because he fell-the plan of Redemption was in play EVEN before the Fall-because (I believe) the purpose of the fall was to reveal his Son/Love to his people. A love that I could say, not even the angels know of. A Redemptive love-though angels have never known redemption(to my knowledge)

I may be saying this the wrong way-so to claify what I am saying, the answer is this:

1 Cor 15:22"For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"ALL"[/b] BE MADE ALIVE"

The obvious is that "ALL" of mankind is NOT "IN" Christ(but ALL of mankind is/was at some point IN ADAM,even those who God forknew)-but never has there been a time where "ALL" of mankind to mean every single individual in the world has been "IN" Christ. (The only people "IN" Christ are: Eph 2:10 For "WE" are his workmanship, [b]created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained[/b] that we should walk in them.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are "IN" Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, [b]but after the Spirit[/b]. Does the whole world walk after the Spirit?

Example: Let's begin at Rom 1 (who is Romans written to)

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, [b]called[/b] to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 [b]By whom "WE" have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, for his name[/b]: 6 [b]Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ[/b]: 7 To all that be in Rome, BELOVED of God, [b]CALLED TO BE SAINTS[/b]: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

v7 "To ALL that be in Rome"-what "ALL" that be in Rome?-"ALL" [b]THE CALLED[/b] to BE SAINTS

Who are "THE CALLED"

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, [b]to them who are THE CALLED according to his purpose[/b]. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, [b]THEM he also CALLED: and whom he called, THEM he also justified[/b]: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall "WE" then say to these things? If God be for US, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, [b]but delivered him up for "US ALL"[/b], how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge [b]of God's elect[/b]?

The CALLED are God's Elect(called to be saints)-whom Christ was v32"...delivered up for US ALL.."

Now to Rom 5:1

Remember that in Rom 8:30 it is the Called that are the elect that were justified

Rom 5: 1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith[/b], WE have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 [b]By whom also WE have access by faith INTO THIS GRACE[/b](for by Grace are ye saved...) wherein WE stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

(The "we" in the above verses are the Called elect justfied by faith from the foundation of the world-the Church)

6 For when "WE" were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 [b]But God commendeth his love toward "US", [b]in that, while "WE" were yet sinners, Christ died for "US"[/b]. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, "WE" shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when "WE" were enemies, "WE" were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, "WE" shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but "WE" also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]by whom WE have now received the atonement[/b].12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, [b]much more the GRACE of God[/b], and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto "MANY"(The many "US" elect). 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of [b]"MANY" (not ALL offences) offences unto justification[/b]. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [b]18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men UNTO JUSTIFICATION of life[/b](but remember, only the called elect were justified Rom 8:30). 19 For as by one man's disobedience "MANY" were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall "MANY" be made righteous.

The "Many" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" or "ALL" of the elect/that the Father has given me. Or, to make it simpler: The "MANY" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" of :

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: [b]for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, and TONGUE, and PEOPLE, and NATION[/b];

And

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, [b]of ALL NATIONS, and KINDREDS, and PEOPLE, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb[/b].

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"All" BE MADE ALIVE[/b]. 23 But "every man" in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

Will every single individual ever to live on this earth " be made ALIVE" in Christ?-I think not

v 23 But "every man" in his own order-is the "every man" refering to EVERY SINGLE individual that ever lived or shall lived-or is not even this "EVERY" ALL of the "MANY".









 2009/10/8 12:51Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

trueblue wrote:

[b]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world[/b].

According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.

Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.



Trublue, my brother-whom I love-though I know you not-yet I belive the Lord knows thee-so we with passion and fervernt love of the Spirit are one.

1 John 2:2 does in fact say that Christ is the propitation of the sins of the whole world-but let us never forget what the Spirit expreseth through Paul:

Rom 3:23 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [b]through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD[/b], to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Propitiation is made only on the behalf of those WHO have faith in his Blood. Those whom have not faith in his Blood-indeed have no propitiation.

 2009/10/8 13:07Profile
trueblue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/1
Posts: 63


 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Quote:

trueblue wrote:
Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.

Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.






Hey bro..so what your saying according to this logic that according to rom 5:19.."So by one mans Disobedience Many were made sinners"...(its only a lot,not every) etc??



Yes, that is what I am saying-yet to this extent. The "many" that were made sinners, are those whom God FORKNEW in Christ in from the foundation of the world in Adam BEFORE Adam's fall. Like when Paul says I'am crucified with Christ"-well, Christ is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (in eternity) thus, that is when Paul (and all Christians) were crucified with him in eternity as well, but to reveal itself in the fullness of time. Since we (the elect were in Adam at one point) but God forknowing us in him before his fall-that is when the "Many" were MADE sinners (those whom God forknew but because we were in Adam, and Adam was at one point righteous-which while we were in him BEFORE his fall, so were we)But because he fell-the plan of Redemption was in play EVEN before the Fall-because (I believe) the purpose of the fall was to reveal his Son/Love to his people. A love that I could say, not even the angels know of. A Redemptive love-though angels have never known redemption(to my knowledge)

I may be saying this the wrong way-so to claify what I am saying, the answer is this:

1 Cor 15:22"For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"ALL"[/b] BE MADE ALIVE"

The obvious is that "ALL" of mankind is NOT "IN" Christ(but ALL of mankind is/was at some point IN ADAM,even those who God forknew)-but never has there been a time where "ALL" of mankind to mean every single individual in the world has been "IN" Christ. (The only people "IN" Christ are: Eph 2:10 For "WE" are his workmanship, [b]created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained[/b] that we should walk in them.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are "IN" Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, [b]but after the Spirit[/b]. Does the whole world walk after the Spirit?

Example: Let's begin at Rom 1 (who is Romans written to)

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, [b]called[/b] to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 [b]By whom "WE" have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, for his name[/b]: 6 [b]Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ[/b]: 7 To all that be in Rome, BELOVED of God, [b]CALLED TO BE SAINTS[/b]: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

v7 "To ALL that be in Rome"-what "ALL" that be in Rome?-"ALL" [b]THE CALLED[/b] to BE SAINTS

Who are "THE CALLED"

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, [b]to them who are THE CALLED according to his purpose[/b]. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, [b]THEM he also CALLED: and whom he called, THEM he also justified[/b]: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall "WE" then say to these things? If God be for US, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, [b]but delivered him up for "US ALL"[/b], how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge [b]of God's elect[/b]?

The CALLED are God's Elect(called to be saints)-whom Christ was v32"...delivered up for US ALL.."

Now to Rom 5:1

Remember that in Rom 8:30 it is the Called that are the elect that were justified

Rom 5: 1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith[/b], WE have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 [b]By whom also WE have access by faith INTO THIS GRACE[/b](for by Grace are ye saved...) wherein WE stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

(The "we" in the above verses are the Called elect justfied by faith from the foundation of the world-the Church)

6 For when "WE" were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 [b]But God commendeth his love toward "US", [b]in that, while "WE" were yet sinners, Christ died for "US"[/b]. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, "WE" shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when "WE" were enemies, "WE" were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, "WE" shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but "WE" also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]by whom WE have now received the atonement[/b].12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, [b]much more the GRACE of God[/b], and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto "MANY"(The many "US" elect). 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of [b]"MANY" (not ALL offences) offences unto justification[/b]. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [b]18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men UNTO JUSTIFICATION of life[/b](but remember, only the called elect were justified Rom 8:30). 19 For as by one man's disobedience "MANY" were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall "MANY" be made righteous.

The "Many" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" or "ALL" of the elect/that the Father has given me. Or, to make it simpler: The "MANY" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" of :

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: [b]for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, and TONGUE, and PEOPLE, and NATION[/b];

And

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, [b]of ALL NATIONS, and KINDREDS, and PEOPLE, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb[/b].

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"All" BE MADE ALIVE[/b]. 23 But "every man" in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

Will every single individual ever to live on this earth " be made ALIVE" in Christ?-I think not

v 23 But "every man" in his own order-is the "every man" refering to EVERY SINGLE individual that ever lived or shall lived-or is not even this "EVERY" ALL of the "MANY".









Brother i think maybe you misunderstand me..Im not refering to the many in the later part of Rom 5:19.I am refering to the first part of the scripture "For by ones mans disobedience MANY were made sinners..now this word does not mean all or some etc..it means everyone.So if this word many in this context menas all then why do you suggest that the word many in Mar 14:24 is different...blessings!!.

 2009/10/8 13:10Profile





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