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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Catholics believe they are saved by works?

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 Re:

Quote:
Who is "orthodox"? Is he for real, or was he created by Wayne to play with the minds of God's chosen vessels? What we have is a charismatic, supported by other charismatics, who hate sound doctrine. We don’t have anyone that is “Orthodox”, or a “Catholic”, that is fueling this thread, and is challenging and attacking those who hold to the importance of Scripture, and the Sound Doctrine that is found within it, we have a charismatic WHO HATES SOUND DOCTRINE.



Um...THAT is what I would call a character assassination. And by someone who doesn't know or even care to know me. I doubt he has read all of my posts. (He can correct me if I'm wrong)

I could properly be called "Catholic", "Orthodox", "Charismatic", even "Pentecostal". But labels are of no consequence as such. Are you a part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church?

But I'll let the Lord be my defense. The Lord knows all of them that are His. I am satisfied with that.

Quote:
In Paul’s letter to Titus it is stated in chapter 2 verse 1, “You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.” Beginning with verse two Titus is told what qualifies as being consistent with sound doctrine. In the remainder of chapter two he deals with the things five different groups of individuals are to be taught. The details of these teachings is the Biblical foundation for sound doctrine.



So Waltern is the definer of what sound doctrine is? This seems to be unilateral here. So we can gather that if what Waltern says is true...if waltern agrees, it is sound. If waltern disagrees, it is unsound. But he cloaks his pronouncement under the vail of being "Biblical".

Sir, do you know how many people of different and contradictory persuasions I have heard tell me that theirs is the Biblical view?

But really the truth is that you might as well spit in the face of every church father since the first century and therefore the apostles and Jesus Christ, God in the flesh Himself. You exalt your own beliefs against the knowledge of God and His Church.

Quote:
The definition of sound doctrine today has been expanded to include an acceptance and application of man’s interpretation of Scripture and the religious traditions he holds dear.



According to this definition you have given you leave yourself susceptible to logically based accusations of your own guilt. Do you not believe doctrines concocted by your own "interpretation"? Of course you do. But they are not and can not be properly called "the Word of God" unless they carry the intended meaning of Scripture with the words of Scripture. That meaning has been universally (catholicly) understood by the Church in all places and all times.

Quote:
This is a PM sent to me by Wayne, when at that time ‘Wayne” was also “LoinGirder” (and how many “others”?):



Just when I think I don't have any more respect for you to lose, you go and pull this. How dare you post someone's private message to you? Disgusting.

 2009/10/22 2:35









 Re:

Quote:
Are you really that blind to believe what you claim? Silly me, I thought Jesus had the keys to the kingdom? Before you spam the rest of the board, please take a listen to this (try listening to all of it, before you jump the gun): http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&safe=active&q=john%20macarthur%20catholic%20&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#



Thank you very much for posting this link. I was not aware that John MacArthur was so anti-Catholic. But what was distressing from what I listened to was how he presumes as many (including myself before) do to ascend the pulpit without getting his facts straight. He, like many so-called "Bible Baptists", is so enamoured with his view of what is believed by Catholics that he fails to truly UNDERSTAND what it is that they do believe....what I believe.

His assertion that the whole "system" would collapse without purgatory proves this. He ignores that the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox do not have a formally defined doctrine about purgatory and they believe exactly what the Western Catholics believe.

He is ignorant of the fact that purgatory is NOT a "second chance" to get into heaven. No one enters into a state of purgatory after death who has died outside of the state of grace. No one in a state of purgatory goes to hell. No one who has not been FORGIVEN goes to a state of purgatory or, in the East, final theosis.

He claims that indulgences is "selling forgiveness for money". What an ignorant claim. He constantly sets up straw men so he can knock them down. Before you attack a position, you must first understand what the person holding it claims to believe by it.

He speaks of "the perversion of forced celibacy." Does this guy read anything that isn't on Chick's website?

No of course he does. He is obviously well read in the writings of the Rebels of the so-called "reformation" or revolt. He exhibits their same force and spirit of presumption and error. Only he has inherited his heresy and they willfully chose it from a presumed state of grace.

This heretic says that "Mary has nothing to do with the salvation of anybody." This is the difference between Protestant heretics and apostolic Christians whether they be Catholic, Orthodox, Syriac, Ethiopic, Coptic, etc. The difference is that the Protestant gospel seems to start at Christ's passion. The true gospel begins with the incarnation. Those that understand salvation history see this from Genesis to Apocalypse. It was Mary's "Amen" that cooperated with the Divine plan. She is the second Eve, the mother of all the living. Mary is the mother of every man or woman who will be saved. If Mary isn't your mother, you're lost.

He misquotes Pope JP II about hell among other things and calls him a universalist...even though he admitted that he couldn't find a statement of universalism in any of his writings...only statements utilizing the term "universal salvation." I have to think MacArthur has to shut something off internally when he shuts off his objectivity.

MacArthur claims that Peter was never in Rome. Ask me and I'll give you evidence such that you will probably blush.

This guy near the end says "the more liturgy the more apostasy." From who? We are the Church. Protestantism apostasized from us. Liturgy is apostolic. No time to go into that one.

Now it is your turn. Please listen to this message (3 parts):

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=iq_1047.mp3

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=iq_1048.mp3

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=iq_1049.mp3

God bless you as you listen.

 2009/10/22 3:18









 Re:

"Orthodox,

You just stated that your faith in entering the Kingdom runs through a mortal man... mortal flesh... the created.

Do you see no error with this?"

Here's my answer:

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=iq_1047.mp3

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=iq_1048.mp3

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=iq_1049.mp3

 2009/10/22 3:20
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Anonymous said,

I pray God reveals His truth to you as He did me.






That would be your interpretation.

 2009/10/22 7:54Profile









 Re:

Where did he go?...pray for him.

This is the difference. Last week I was kicked off of a site because I brought up Christ and was threatened on another one for the same reason. I am not leaving them, they are leaving me...sadly.

Orthodox, left SI...(well, that profile did), we are not leaving him.

 2009/10/22 9:31









 Re:

"The litmus test "show me in the Bible" is not remotely Biblical." anon

That just isn't true!!

...Timothy 3:16

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.......

I guess I don't get it, you cut and paste Scripture and throw it around like some kind of dissertation to justify your doctrine and reprove someone else, then turn around and cry foul when you can't scripturally justify a deception. At this point you say Scripture is not sufficient, and therefore it is only sufficient when you deem necessary. You seem to want it both ways and that's a problem from the beginning... that's deceptive.. that's hypocrisy... that's subjective justification. After being born again I understood this... the Holy Spirit did not testify to anything other than the Father and the Son. It was made very clear.

"Do you believe in the Trinity? The Athanasian creed is NOT in the Bible. Yet the doctrine is true." ortho-anon

The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are in the bible. Whatever label man puts upon it is subjective to them. This is a perfect example of doctrine justifying scripture instead of the other way around. The cart is in front of the horse... We shouldn't need a creed to tell me that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. The Holy Spirit is sufficient in this. God doesn't need the word 'Trinity' nor a creed to justify His truth.. it is what it is. What one calls it, and what 'creed' is derived from it, and the fact that the word or the creed that describes it isn't in the bible, doesn't preclude the knowledge of it. Nor does the creed enlighten me to it. I've never heard of this creed as a catholic which only proves I never needed the creed to understand the truth in it.

Again where's May Crowning? Where's the Patron Sants who help us? And what is the church process of how one becomes a patron saint... Even if you can't justify it scripturally it seems so convoluted that it's hard to grasp.

"Why not? Are the departed saints cut off from Christ? Are we? You err, sir" anon

Exactly brother anon. We are not cut off from Christ and they are not as well. So no err there. No, they (the dead) are just cut off from us. The error is in their ability to mediate for us divinely, as if we need an advocate to Christ. See how the deception works? If we believe that someone can act as our advocate to Christ, even though the bible says that He alone is our mediator of the New Covenant-

(1 Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus).

..then the enemy has succeded in undermining our Savior. Satan distracts us from Our Savior. It's true.

What part of one God AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN JESUS CHRIST is lacking in truth?? This is a simple truth and powerful.

He's our high priest, our first love, our rigteousness. The bible says 'HE', and only He, is our advocate. Christ never said pray to dead people to represent us on His behalf. In the Bible, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit testify to no one but eachother. And the Holy Spirit will not testify to anything other than this. Satan dresses up like an angel of light. Again divination is a biblical abomination.

At the end of time the prayers of the saints will be thrown down. Yes. But you're focusing on what you've been told... that the saints are dead and these saints pray. But the body of Christ are the saints dead or living. The saints are those who ar in Christ Jesus... they are not 'Cannonized'. Cannonization wasn't even a reality when the bible described the saints. The prayers are the prayers of us while we are here. There is nothing is the bible that says those who have passed on are saints who pray. Your definition of 'saints' is the catholic one. Please sir... I'm telling you the truth... let go of your own reasoning and ask God to give you truth. I don't want this for you because I've been where you've been. There has to be something deep down that troubles you about some of this. The catholic church demands loyalty to their church, their doctrine, they have people convinced that if you are outside of them then hell awaits. IT'S NOT TRUE!!!!! IT'S NOT. That's why people have to call the experts in doctrine to get answers to theological questions. They create a co-dependency. They amend doctrine and rules as they go along, and it's hard for the average catholic to keep up with. I'll sum up all my catholic family and friends with this phrase: very loyal... and very confused. Not just confused about Christ and justification by faith but the whole convoluted catholic way. Please, wipe the slate clean of all you know and have been taught and open up Paul's Epistles and just look at what it says. Pray for the leading of the Spirit. Tell God 'I give up trying to know all of this, I want YOU, please give me truth and reveal yourself to me, reveal your truth to me.' Letting go and letting God can be a scary thing... but if He knows your heart and your heart wants Him, He will not foresake you, He will come and you will know. Don't even get caught up in what we are saying here... just let go and get alone with God and His Word. I pray for this. I know where I was then and where I am now, and I can tell you that you will never be the same and you will have peace, love, and truth beyond anything you imagine. This isn't about Prostestantism vs Catholicism... this is about relationship with our creator... this is about Our Savior's indewelling via His holy spirit.

 2009/10/22 12:08
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Orthodox

Quote:
BrianMira wrote:
Where did he go?...pray for him.

This is the difference. Last week I was kicked off of a site because I brought up Christ and was threatened on another one for the same reason. I am not leaving them, they are leaving me...sadly.

Orthodox, left SI...(well, that profile did), we are not leaving him.



Amen! If you read back over his final replies to Walter, the spirit in which they were written were not at all like Waltern's which says something about who has more of the Fruit of the Spirit.

[b]ORTHODOX please come back to SI! Ask Greg to reinstate your name!![/b] With those who gave you a hard time, CONSIDER THE SOURCE!!

I know I'm not the only one who enjoys intelligent conversation on SI!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/10/22 12:47Profile









 Re:

Firstly, I apologize to ortho and anon if I may have offended. These are passionate debates and in my last post towards the end my plea was with a sincere heart. I could care less about winning arguments but you wouldn't know it sometimes. I'm as guilty as anyone in getting caught up in the semantics of debate. Being a former catholic and now knowing the Lord intimately, I want everyone to have this. Therefore the passion can easily become misguided and flesh driven.

"I know I'm not the only one who enjoys intelligent conversation on SI!" lysa

I think 'the intellect' on the forum in part of the problem... but I know what you meant. Amen.

 2009/10/22 13:10
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Lysa

There were many here who love the Lord dearly, we were not giving Orthodox a hard time, we were sharing truth with him. He was pushing forth a doctrine of lies that is blasphemy to the Lord. Should that have been allowed to continue? The Catholic church does not save, mary does not save, dead saints do not save, only Jesus saves.

Orthodox was promoting a teaching that is other then Biblical truth, would you want a Jehovah witness to come and spread their lies, or a mormon to come and spread their lies here on Sermon index to deceive young immature Christians into fallowing their deceiving doctrines as well? I pray for the person behind the name Orthodox to repent and cry out to Jesus. I pray for his salvation because this person is lost in a dead religion and will suffer eternity apart from God if they do not repent. I hold no anger or hate for this person, but at the same time I do not want them to push their lies and cause others to parish along with them. If Orthodox had shown even the smallest desire to seek truth then sharing with him would be beneficial but that was not the case, his desire was made clear with what he posted time and time again. The Bible is very clear on this point, "No one comes to the Father except by Jesus. He is the way the truth and the light! This is not about a debate on who is right or wrong(at least not for me) this is about people who are lost in a pagan religion dieing and going to hell because we don't want to make anyone uncomfortable by telling them the truth. Agreed it has to be done in a Christ like loving manner but at the same time should a wolf be allowed to devour the sheep unchecked? After all this is eternity were talking about!

God Bless
maryjane

 2009/10/22 13:14Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

MaryJane wrote:
Greetings Lysa

There were many here who love the Lord dearly, we were not giving Orthodox a hard time, we were sharing truth with him. He was pushing forth a doctrine of lies that is blasphemy to the Lord. Should that have been allowed to continue? The Catholic church does not save, mary does not save, dead saints do not save, only Jesus saves.

Orthodox was promoting a teaching that is other then Biblical truth, would you want a Jehovah witness to come and spread their lies, or a mormon to come and spread their lies here on Sermon index to deceive young immature Christians into fallowing their deceiving doctrines as well? I pray for the person behind the name Orthodox to repent and cry out to Jesus. I pray for his salvation because this person is lost in a dead religion and will suffer eternity apart from God if they do not repent. I hold no anger or hate for this person, but at the same time I do not want them to push their lies and cause others to parish along with them. If Orthodox had shown even the smallest desire to seek truth then sharing with him would be beneficial but that was not the case, his desire was made clear with what he posted time and time again. The Bible is very clear on this point, "No one comes to the Father except by Jesus. He is the way the truth and the light! This is not about a debate on who is right or wrong(at least not for me) this is about people who are lost in a pagan religion dieing and going to hell because we don't want to make anyone uncomfortable by telling them the truth. Agreed it has to be done in a Christ like loving manner but at the same time should a wolf be allowed to devour the sheep unchecked? After all this is eternity were talking about!

God Bless
maryjane


Amen. Well said, MJ.

 2009/10/22 13:28Profile





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