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 Re:

Pastorfrin sums it up beautifully and who better to comment than an old soldier who has saw the horrors of war. Onr thing I think, if one takes the time to read the article, is that its all Scripture. Everything he says stands upon the Word. Those who believe that men can join human institutions and therefore nullify the teachings of the lord temperarily, have not a single Scripture, merely the opinions of men.

My mothers brother spent 6 months in prison in 1947 for refusing to be trained how to kill someone. At that time, even although Britain was not at war, they had national conscription. Each young man had to spend 18 months in the military. I believe it ended in the early fifites. Apparently he had a horrific time in prison, men had no time , especially just after the war, for what they considered cowards. My uncle went on to become a missionary in Pakistan for over 30 years, a truly brave man who walked out his faith and the Word of God.

Something to consider..............
In the movie "Saving Private Ryan," which had, arguably,one of the most realistic war scenes in the opening 2o minutes, we saw the chaos and horror of the beach landings in Normandy. Many old soldiers attested to its realism and of course it won awards. Now, in the midst of the chaos and mayhem, we see a Catholic priest. He administers "Sacraments," and comforts the wounded and the dying. He has no gun. This would not garner any comment from anyone. No one would expect to see a "priest," with his collor on shooting and killing people, they would expect him to comfort and pray for those who had fallen. Now, why is that not an unusual scene for the world? You see, even the world does not expect "men of the cloth," to carry guns and shoot people, that would not be considered their role in life. Yet, as most on this site at least, know, the true priests in a royal priesthood are not Catholic clerics, but they are anyone who genuinly knows Jesus.

Now, why is there never been a movement to have Catholic priests and others take up weapons? What the world so easily understands, so many professing Christians do not.........brother Frank

 2009/9/21 12:06
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

Quote:
Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?
Love and Peace to All,
pastorfrin


I was reading John 19 this morning, and these words really struck me:

John 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, [b]If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: [u]whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.[/b][/u]

John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? [b]The chief priests answered, [u]We have no king but Caesar.[/b][/u]

 2009/9/21 12:21Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:
Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?



We certainly belong to an eternal kingdom with an Eternal King. Yet, we are still confined to this temporary life in the place, time and land of the Lord's choosing. In fact, we are actually AMBASSADORS OF CHRIST to this present world. Yet, no matter how spiritually minded we hopefully might be, we are still confined to this present world for the time being. While our hearts and minds might be concentrating on heavenly, eternal things, we still have obligations and responsibilities here on this Earth.

[b]I Peter 2:13-17[/b]

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. [b]Fear God. Honour the king.[/b]

[b]Romans 13:1-7[/b]

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

[b]Acts 2:22-29[/b]

22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.

25And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

27 [b]Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.[/b]

28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

29 Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

[b]Acts 10:1-6[/b]

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 [b]A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.[/b]

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

[b]I Corinthians 7:32-35[/b]

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 [b]But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.[/b]

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

[b]I Timothy 5:7-8[/b]

7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.

8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/9/21 13:36Profile









 Re:

Romans 13:1-7

"1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

I have to admit, I struggle a little on this one. Is the underground Church in China doing a good work?? In God's eyes they are since the Bible says to do the work of an evangelist. But what about in the eyes of the state of China?? Do they see this as a good work? Since they made an ordinance for the Bible not to be preached I would think not. In this case the underground church will be punished by the state for not adhering to law. Yet we would consider this a 'good work' that should go unpunished by the state. Where is the sciptural line drawn here??

cc-

 2009/9/21 14:20









 Re:

Hi CC..

Chris uses Scriptural quotes in order to validate war, which is what this thread is about. Yet these Scriptures were not designed for the followers of Jesus to blindly follow earthly powers. We are to live peacably amongst men, when it is within our power, but we are never told to violate our concience, the thought is a preposterous one. When the apostles were released and told not to share the Gospel again, what was their reply to the authorities? Who should a man honor, God or the authorities? Chris further states that we are ambassadors, which of course is correct. Now what is an ambassadors role? If America sends an Ambassador to Russia, does the Ambassador get involved in local conflicts or politics? Or, is he there merely to represent the views of the ruler that sent him? The centurion that Chris mentions had not yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit, correct? Now, if we look at the story of Peter before and after his baptism in the Holy Spirit we see a telling story. In the first scene we see Peter cutting of the ear of the servant of the high priest, with a sword. He is told to put his sword dwon and Jesus restores the man's ear. This is too much for Peter to take. He was very brave and had every intention of going down with the ship, a fight to the death. Go to any country in the world and you can raise men who will fight to the death for any number of causes. When he realized that Jesus was willingly sumbitting, surrendering into the hands of the enemy to be humilated, tortured and killed, Peter rejected that and denied Jesus, yes even with curses. Now, what do we see after the baptism of the Holy Spirit? A totaly changed Peter, endued with power from on high, power to penetrate the hardest hearts with what? The sword? The spear? No, with the words of life. Of course Stephen and others were endued with this same power and all would be martyred. Yet through their martyrdom the world would be radically changed, not by war or by human effort, but by surrender and yielding to the Lord and "loving not their lives unto death."

Now at the bottom of Chris's post we see this quote..........

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose" by JIm Elliot.

Now there can be no better modern example of how the forces of darkness are destroyed. Jim met his fate, of course, at the end of a spear. Now, those missionaries had come to seek and to save the lost, not to defend and to kill. It is interesting that they had a pistol on that plane, but had agreed not to use it on any natives. And what happened to the natives that killed them? Almost all were saved. God's ways are so much higher than man's ways and wisdom, may His way be praised..........Frank

 2009/9/21 14:41
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

I was talking over this thread with another in the body and they asked me that if we are to submit ourselves to the government of this land with out questioning or seeking if it is in Gods will for us, then why do so many speak out against abortion? It is after all the law in this land that a woman has a right to choose. If a young man or woman can go off to war and kill to serve his country because that is the law of the land and do so with a clear conscious then a woman can choose to have a baby or not with a clear conscious. It is after all the law here in this country and she is submitting herself unto it..

(on a side note, I "MUST" make clear this is not my point of view, this was the opinion of another that I am relating here. In her mind one form of killing is no different then the other, both are taking of a life. I should also add that this person was not advocating abortion, she believes all killing is wrong. I will admit that Even for me it is a difficult one to answer because in the end someone is loosing their life, the place matters little, it may be in an abortion clinic, or on the battlefield. People are dieing. I am not implying that a solider fighting in a war is like a doctor performing an abortion are the same, but rather not sure how to answer that the resulting actions of someone dieing are the same? We would never say to a christian doctor because the law says that abortion is permissible go with a clear conscious and kill unborn babies, why then do we say to christian young men and woman because the law says so go and defend this country and if need be kill men and woman with a clear conscious. Is killing of any kind sin, if not in the new testament where is one instructed to kill in order to live a Godly life? Can you really truly love the person with a Christ like heart and then kill them? these are just some of my thoughts and questions. I do not pretend to have all the answer, but as Christians are there not things that we just can not do?)

with care
rdg

edit: I almost forgot, another brother asked this question. What if Christian American soldiers were asked to go into American cities and defend or take control and they found themselves having to shoot fellow Christians would they still be able to do so with a clear conscious? For me these are all really tough questions as I said.(I am sure it happened in the civil war sadly, I just don't see how you can say you love someone then kill them, and we are told to love our enemies :(

 2009/9/21 14:58Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Quote:
Chris uses Scriptural quotes in order to validate war...

Ummm...how did you conclude that this was my intent? Frank, I think that you are making this a little more personal than might be necessary. Next time, you might want to ASK me before publicly "reading my mind" and expressing just what you think that my intentions might be.

If you read my posts again, I don't think that you can even remotely make the clam that this is what I am trying to do. What I am trying to say, however, is that this issue is not nearly as "open and shut" as some people might make it out to be. Some of us have prayed about this topic, studied it with sincerity, and simply arrived to a different conclusion.

I am raising the possibility that there is a difference between egocentric SELF DEFENSE and both defense of the weak or service in the military. I covered many of the things that you are commenting about several pages back (in my first post in this thread). There is possibly a difference between PERSONAL reaction to an evil person...and defending those who might be entrusted to your care.

You don't have to agree; however, you don't have to insist that you are absolutely correct on this issue either. It is funny that some of the individuals who claim to embrace "non-resistance" are often the same ones who use are the most vulgar or angry with their words that are directed toward those who disagree with them. Angry words, public misinterpretations and "spiritual" ridicule from a brother can often hurt more than any spear.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/9/21 15:26Profile









 Re:

Hi rdg. You said or 'they said':

"It is after all the law in this land that a woman has a right to choose."

I don't see it quite this way in this example as you are within the law regardless of what you choose. Neither choosing abortion nor the life of the child is against the ordinance of the state.... but one is against the mandate of God.

Paul is talking about law breakers... those who obstinately go against a rule of law designed to sustain some civility and order. Take for instance the big headline a few months ago when a man killed an abortion doctor in a church. As far as the law was concerned that doctor did no wrong in his practice BUT the man that killed him was arrested for murder as the law is against this. Regardless of how the many people of this nation see abortion as murder (as it does end a life-filled organism) the law of the land is not undone by this contingent whether right or wrong. But I don't think the world saw this murder of the doctor as 'a good work' on behalf of Christianity. We have to expect the unsaved to have a skewed view of morality but we are peculiar to this as children of God. When we react to murder with murder then the world's view of our morality.. as it pertains to God's law... sees that we are skewed as well. Anyway the man who killed the doctor disobeyed and the state punished him.... but he thought he was doing a good work and so all of Christianity gets painted with this brush... Paul wants to mitigate this so we are to be as consistent as we can be in recognizing and obeying the secular state. We can preach against it and be within the the law, but once someone pulls the trigger they are acting on their own behalf.

But what about those in China who are not to preach the Gospel but do so 'underground' to avoid getting caught??... for obviously they are avoiding pending punishment for violating the state law. These are gray areas for me in terms of Scripture.

 2009/9/21 15:31
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

rainydaygirl said:

Quote:
I was talking over this thread with another in the body and they asked me that if we are to submit ourselves to the government of this land with out questioning or seeking if it is in Gods will for us, then why do so many speak out against abortion? It is after all the law in this land that a woman has a right to choose. If a young man or woman can go off to war and kill to serve his country because that is the law of the land and do so with a clear conscious then a woman can choose to have a baby or not with a clear conscious. It is after all the law here in this country and she is submitting herself unto it..


The correct term to use when discussing what God has forbidden is MURDER, not KILL - there is a difference here. Murder is a personal act accompanied by malicious intent and premeditation. Abortion is murder.

Let us not radicalize what others are saying, please. We all agree that all government laws are subordinate to the laws of God. If people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they have discarded God's teachings.

 2009/9/21 15:39Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:


Edit: need to rewrite my response.
rdg

 2009/9/21 16:43Profile





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