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Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear old Joe,

Quote:
Matt 5-7 is Christ showing how far the intent of the law goes so that none can claim its righteousness. The intent of the sermon on the mount is not to tell people how far to go so they can measure up to some higher standard, but rather to emphasize how far short of the perfect measurement we come, which in turn is to cause us to fall upon Christ.


That was very well said. Short and precise - you put my lengthy posts to shame. :-)

Leo

 2009/9/20 19:05Profile









 Re:

lEO , lEO , lEO :)

You discuss this like a politician :) I said that common sense prevails and hypbebole identifies itself. Lets not put words in my mouth please, it does not serve you well. I gave you the examples of hyperbole. I told you that no one has gouged out their eyes or cut of limbs, no one mentally stable that is, and this was clearly hyperbole. Now brother, thats not difficult to understand. Let not intentionaly complicate a simple matter. If you find the instructions from Jesus too difficult brother, then perhaps one must follow the crowd of John 6 :) Of course, most of the disciples left HIm at that point because what He was saying was too difficult. I think there is a similar difficutly for followers of Jesus when it comes to the sermon on the mount and we cleaverly devise interpretations that allow us to follow the ways of the world.

"If now you say there is no hyperbole in this passage."

Where did I say that brother? I said that Jesus gave instructions for His followers in Mat 5-7. I also said that hyperbole identifies itself. I gave the exmples of it and threw in the camel for good measure :) This is not a "gotcha ," discussion brother, this is a serious matter. It could well be argued that this very matter is why the church, particulalry in America, lacks real power...........Frank

PS...Just because one finds hyperbole in a chapter, does not mean that everything else one reads must be hyperbole, that does not even make sense. I can make several serious points in a chapter of a non-ficition book and still say that it is raining cats and dogs, that does not nullify the serious points or somehow turn them also in hyperbole, is this what you are suggesting brother?

 2009/9/20 19:23
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear Frank,

I have simply been trying to explain to others, including you, how I see that particular passage of scripture in Mt 5:17-43. I see them all as interrelated passages, all pointing at Jesus' exhortation that his disciples must far exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. I see the unity of purpose in the hyperboles (or exaggerations) to emphasize the large extent by which they must exceed the Pharisees; I see the unity of purpose in the way the passages were similarly structured from beginning to end. I tried to explain this, thinking that it would be easy for others to see what I saw - obviously I was mistaken.

Regardless, this recent discussion was merely intended to clarify my view. If I have failed to do that, then so be it.

By the way, Frank, I never implied nor do I believe that Jesus' teachings are "too hard". I am one of those who have lost themselves to Christ - I am dead and gone, and the dead never complain.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

 2009/9/20 20:11Profile









 Re:

Leo,

I have no problem with you explaining what you believe, and we obviously disagree and thats ok too. The bottom line in all of these discussions is that we can agree to disagree. I think your point is well explained, you believe it is all hyperbole. My postion is that it is hyperbole where it is obvious, literal.

I think that it is impossible from the Scriptures and from the behaviour of the early church to argue that if one joins a civil organisation then all of what is taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount is nullified while you are a part of that organisation. What you seem to be doing in your argument, and please correct me if I am wrong, is saying that Jesus never taught that in the first place therefore our discussion is moot? Or perhaps you are saying that when Jesus tokd His followers to turn the other cheek, that He was "wildly exagerating," because no one would ever actually turn the other cheek? ..........Frank

 2009/9/20 21:03
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Frank,

You have a funny way of rephrasing my statements like:

"I think that it is impossible from the Scriptures and from the behaviour of the early church to argue that if one joins a civil organisation then all of what is taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount is nullified while you are a part of that organisation."

or

"What you seem to be doing in your argument, and please correct me if I am wrong, is saying that Jesus never taught that in the first place therefore our discussion is moot?"

or

"Or perhaps you are saying that when Jesus tokd His followers to turn the other cheek, that He was "wildly exagerating," because no one would ever actually turn the other cheek?"

I cannot see how you arrived at these.

I have already made eleven posts in this thread which, I believe, adequately present my stand on the topic. I also agree very much with what ccchhhrrriiisss has posted here, so you may want to read his posts too if you truly want to grasp what I have been trying to say.

Thank you.

Leo

 2009/9/20 22:13Profile









 Re:

Hi Leo,

The first phrase you quote has nothing to do with you or any phrase you may have used, it was a general point on the subject of the thread. The second phrase you quote is not a rephrasing of something you said, it was a question. You have stated that in Mat 5:17-43 the points are related and that I could not pick and chose which ones to obey. Of course I never said such a thing. I pointed out that Jesus was giving us instructions but in one point He used hyperbole to emphasis His point. You used the hyperbole to accuse people of not doing that one thing literally and that people should be consistant. I merely pointed out that it was hyperbole and was never meant to be taken literaly so one can hardly be admonished for not gouging out the eye or cutting of the hand. Therefore what you were suggesting made no sense. Its not that I do not understand you brother, its that it makes no sense to me, its co-mingling instructions with a statement that was , by your own definition, grossly exaggerated to make the point. As for the last phrase, when Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, did He mean it brother? Are we to slap back? ..........Frank

 2009/9/21 1:03
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Frank,

You said:

Quote:
Therefore what you were suggesting made no sense. Its not that I do not understand you brother, its that it makes no sense to me


If it made no sense to you, then you didn't understand it.
Thank you for your time.

Leo

 2009/9/21 1:41Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:


The enemy seeks to divide and conquer and he cares not how he does it.

One way is just as good as another.

 2009/9/21 3:40Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re: Will You Kill or Be Killed?

In searching the thread "We need to talk about peace" recommended by ginnyrose, I found this post by Pastorfrin which I find very interesting and is I believe the answer to this discussion.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=35&topic_id=15338&post_id=119211&viewmode=thread&order=1#119211

Notice the question Pastorfrin ask at the end of the article.


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/9/21 5:06Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Old Joe summarized it beautifully, and it's worth repeating:

Quote:
Matt 5-7 is Christ showing how far the intent of the law goes so that none can claim its righteousness. The intent of the sermon on the mount is not to tell people how far to go so they can measure up to some higher standard, but rather to emphasize how far short of the perfect measurement we come, which in turn is to cause us to fall upon Christ.


Thank you all.

Leo

 2009/9/21 9:57Profile





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