SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 Next Page )
PosterThread
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4517


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Quote:
If you were to go to Bible school or seminary, you would find out that great weight is put upon the early church fathers. Now the reasons for this is fairly obvious. These men had direct connections to the Apsotles, therefore, opinion expressed by these men in their writings carry a lot of weight.


Interesting. OF course, there were plenty of heretics who had direct connection with the original apostles too. Some of these men (like Demas) fled because they loved the world. The time in which they lived gives no more credibility to their views than the views of those who did NOT have an ability to write. For instance, there are plenty of experts on the writings of Justin Martyr who ponder the extent that his philosophical writings actually had upon the Church. Many simply regard to him as a philosopher (his education) who converted to Christianity but was non-offensive enough to merit persecution or martyrdom.

Regardless, there was plenty of doctrinal issues in the first century (as apparent in Paul's epistles to the Corinthian church). I suppose that it is interesting to consider the views of some of those early church "fathers" (even though we might debate how much of a "father" they were during that time). Yet, it doesn't mean that their views were universally held by the Church. Nor does it mean that the totality of their views were Scriptural.

Ultimately, the Word of God is our ONLY source for Scriptural and doctrinal truth.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/1/1 19:00Profile









 Re:

Hey brother ChrisJD,

I think it must be obvious to us both and to all that, no matter what argument is laid out, or proofs brought to bear, there seems that we can have no agreement on this. The obvious reason for quoting from the early church fathers is that yes we have Scriptures, but we disagree on what the meaning, intent and interpretation of such Scriptures are. So we look to the early source. If these early sources are just readily dsimissed because there was not perfect doctrine in those days, then I am not sure what to say to you and to those who would handily dismiss the church fathers in favor of their own opinions. I think,a better stratedgy would be to quote other church fathers in favor of your own interpretation.

Anyway, what say you that we start this New Year out respecting each others opinions and agreeing that you are wrong? Okay, that was a typo, what I meant to type was agreeing to disagree? :) Its good to have a discussion with a genuine truth seeker and not one who merely wants to prove himself right or provoke contention. I love you brother and I pray that Gods blessings shine upon you in this New Year.............brother Frank

 2010/1/1 21:09
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re: Concerning the Sword

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.


90
Peter the Apostle says, “To this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow in his steps. He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly” (1 Pet. 2:[21-23]).96 See, that is the road on which Christians must also walk. They must suffer here without reviling when reviled, or threatening when they suffer, but commit everything to God, the just Judge (1 Pet. 3:[9]; Ps. 7:[2 ff]). “For the Lord is an avenger in all these things” (1 Thess. 4:[6]).
How could they then use the power of the sword, if he is to be Judge and Avenger? Absolutely not!

91
When David had the ark of God brought out of the house of Abinadab into the house of Obededom, and the oxen stumbled and Uzzah put hishand on the ark of God and held it, “the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there” because of his wicked deed, and he died there by the ark (2 Sam. 6:[1ff]). This shows and represents
figuratively that God neither wants nor needs men to defend, fight for, or preserve the Gospel with a human arm or the power of the sword, as though he were a god like an idol, unable to defend his Word and gospel himself.

96 Text reads: 1 Pet. 4.

92
“If a man is burdened with the blood of another, let him be a fugitive until death; let no one help him,” said Solomon (Prov. 28:[17]). Hence, a Christian cannot with good conscience help toward shedding blood, much less participate in it himself. God says through Isaiah, “Even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood,” “and your fingers with iniquity” (Isa. 1:[15] and 59:[3]).
Therefore a Christian cannot stain and spot himself with blood; for the soul is in the blood (Gen. 9:[4]), and blood is surely not water.

93
Christ says to his followers, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets” (Mt. 7:[12]97;Lk. 6:[31]; Sir. 31:[15]; Tob. 4:[16]). That is how it is to be in the true Christian church. But nobody who is Christian likes to have a sword used against him. Hence, no Christian should do so to another. Nobody wants to be tortured, bloodily attacked or killed; hence he should not do so to another. Nobody likes to be oppressed by reviling, quarreling, violence and injustice; therefore let him not do so to his neighbor.
Nobody likes to be hit, given blows or to be harmed in any other way, even if this is done by someone who has forgotten his Christian honor; since he does not like it, he should not do it to others. Otherwise each would be like all the others, guilty of the law and the Prophets, even of natural law. And this removes the sword, force and worldly authority from the Christian church.

On the contrary, among the worldly Christians who still do to others what they themselves do not like and who by no means love their neighbor as themselves, there the sword and force are necessarily decreed. But among those who love, it is not given. Those who do not steal have no need of a hangman among them—much less, that they themselves be executioners. In the same way, Christians who do to others what they themselves like to receive and who love one another as themselves have no need of a government with the sword in their midst or among them to compel them to do good or to prevent their doing evil.

But in the world government is more necessary and essential than a bridle for a horse if people are to be controlled. But wherever anyone in the church of Christ ignores this law, “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Mt. 22:[39]) or conversely, “what you do not want done to you, don’t do to your neighbor,” and if he demonstrates disloyalty and wrong or evil, and does not accept being admonished or disciplined through the discipline and punishment of the Spirit or even through the Word of the Lord, he is no Christian and it is Christ’s command to put him out of the church by means of the ban. Then he is part of the world under the sword and must submit to the law until he returns through repentance and a mending of life (Gal. 3).


97. Text reads: Mt. 6.

If the church of Christ were to have the sword, it would have no need of the ban or exclusion and Christ would not have said, “If he refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector” (Mt. 18:[17]).

94
Christ is a king of peace, foreshadowed by Solomon and Melchizedek, who was king of Salem, that is, of peace (Heb. 7:[2]). Therefore also in the Christian church, indeed, in the house of Christ, peace is the mayor, the bailiff and steward, not the sword (Isa 60:[17]);98 there will be a great peace there (2 Esd. 13:[12]). True Christians are a peaceful people of which the prophets foretold (Ps. 72:[7]). For David also says, “May the Lord bless his people with peace” (Ps. 29:[11]).
“He who would love life, . . . let him seek peace and pursue it” (Ps. 34:[12, 14]; 1 Pet. 3:[11]; 2 Tim. 2:[22]). “Great peace will they have who love your law” (Ps.119:[165]).
“Peace be within your walls” (Ps.122:[7]). “Peace be upon Israel!” (Ps.125:[5]; Gal. 6:[16]). And Isaiah: “Thou, Creator, will bring about peace, for we trust in Thee” (Isa. 26:[3]). And “my people shall dwell in the tents of peace” (Isa. 32:[18]). 99 Also: “They shall live and move in peace; my servants will rejoice from their hearts,”100 and “I will let peace flow to her like rivers of water. ”101 “For the fear of God,” says Sirach, “is a crown of wisdom and makes peace flourish again” (Sir. 1:[11]). Yes, Christ commands his followers to say when they enter a house, “Peace be to this house. And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you (Mt. 10:[12-13]; Lk. 10:[5-6]).

Thus, Christians are children of peace. “Peace I leave with you,” says Christ, “my peace I give to you; not as the world gives give I to you” (Jn. 14:[27]). After his resurrection, when all the doors were closed Jesus came and stood among them and said to his disciples, “Peace be with you” (Jn. 20:[19]). That word is the first that Jesus spoke after his resurrection; then, showing them his hands and his side, he said again, “Peace be with you.”


98. Text reads: Isa. 66.
99. Text reads: Isa. 55 and 56.
100. Isa. 55:12; 65.
101. Isa. 66:12.

All the Lord’s apostles first of all and always wish true peace to the churches, which is the apostolic and Christian greeting (Rom. l:[7]; 1 Cor. 1:[3]; 2 Cor. 1:[2]; 1 Pet. 1:[2]; 2 Pet. 1:[2]; 2 Jn. 1:[3]; Jude 1:[2]; Rev. 1:[4]). “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace,” says Paul.102 In all the congregations of the saints, may “peace be with all of you” (Rom. 15:[33]). “Agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you103 (2 Cor. 13:[11]). And we should wear the shoes of peace (Eph. 6:[15]). Also: Strive for peace with all men (Heb. 12:[14]).
“For,” says James, “where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. . . . And the harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace” (Jas. 3:[16,18]).

In the church of Christ, then, where such peace exists, there is no sword or rulership, nor should there be. But in the world, where such peace does not exist, there the sword is and must be. Although God has offered his peace to all mankind, they have not all accepted it; therefore, lest worse happen to men, God in his grace has instituted authority on earth and rulers in the world so that (especially for the sake of the good) outward peace may be kept, which must by no means be taken to mean the true, inward peace of God, which cannot exist together with private possessions. For the world observes peace only for the sake of its possessions; if it is offended in that regard, peace is at once lost. They therefore do not have the peace that Christ has given to his people.

95
Among those in whose life Christ and his teaching truly reign, all carnal rulership is at an end. And among those over whom physical, carnal rulership reigns, Christ is at an end. He has to leave the country of the Gadarenes for he never ever will protect their self-interest, nor does he spare their hogs when those who were possessed are freed (Mt.8:[34]).

96
The supreme Lord, Christ himself, did not come to reign, conquer, pass judgment or rule, nor have anybody brought before him for judgment (Jn. 5:[45]), nor did he himself want to bring charges against anyone; on the contrary, he himself served, and let himself be ruled, attacked, sentenced and condemned to death, and accepted injustice; in brief, he suffered. That is our mirror into which we want to look, in which we want to see whether we have the form of Christ or not. Then the dissension over government would soon be eliminated.


102. 1 Cor. 14:33.
103. Phil. 4:9.

Continued:


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2010/1/2 9:59Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re: Concerning the Sword


“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

97
Christ said, “Whoever would save his life will lose it” (Mt. 16:[25]; 19). Therefore, whoever tries to protect and defend his earthly life and whatever else he has, will squander and forfeit life eternally in God’s sight; and whoever loses his life will keep it for eternal life. Only a slight defense is required: it is simply turning around and presenting oneself at the foot of the cross of Christ. That is the defense of Christians, in which they will overcome and receive victory (Rom. 8:[37]) for eternal life (not for earthly life). For earthly victory does not bring about permanent victory, for there is always a stronger power that will in turn conquer and rule over the Christian. This is therefore not the victory of Christ but the victory of reprehensible flesh that will perish with the flesh.


98
Paul says, “As servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, holiness of spirit, genuine love, truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true; as unknown, and yet are well known; as dying, and see—we are alive; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing everything” (2 Cor. 6:4-10).

This is the promise and expectation of God’s servants here on earth. Neither to the right nor to the left do they have anything but the weapons of righteousness, which are not swords, spears or other arms for taking life, but those weapons named at length above—especially great patience, which is a weapon for all conflict. Anyone who seeks Christ anywhere but at the foot of the cross in patience will not find him. He who teaches otherwise shows himself to be an Antichrist, liar and seducer.

99
In the first apostolic conference it was decided that they keep themselves from blood, as they then notify the church: “It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled and from unchastity” (Acts 15:[28-29]). Here he stresses abstention from blood. For the Holy Spirit does not mean this in the sense of the prohibition of the law of Moses (but as the Psalmist also said: “Their drink offerings of blood I will not pour out”) (Ps. 16:[4]), rather, it was revealed only for this end time. As soon as worldly power mixed itself into the kingdom of Christ, the eating of blood—that is, shedding the blood of man—began among supposed Christians, which the Holy Spirit now correctly forbids us to do as the children of God, whereby we need to be vigilant. If we do so, we do what is right.

100
Paul says, “Even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed” (Gal. 1:[8-9]). If the priests and teachers of war are by no means angels, and preach another gospel that brings with it the sword, guns, spears, armor, lances, clubs, executioners, bailiffs, fighting- masters, tower confinement, imprisonments, warfare, bloodshed, murder, beating and anger, which we have not received from the apostles, they are therefore accursed together with their teaching.

101
God did not give the tribe of Levi any part of the land in the promised land (Deut. 18:[2]; Num. 18:[20]; Ezek. 44:[48]), nor command or permit them to be earthly rulers. This figuratively represents our priesthood in Christ and was descriptive of us, as Paul writes to the Hebrews (Heb. 7:[5], 8, 9, 10). Christ himself says, “The Son of man has nowhere to lay his head” (Lk. 9:[58]), that is, he had no possessions or ruling position here on earth. If he did not have these things, much less should we, his disciples.

102
The world and false Christians boast of their love for their neighbor, saying: Should I not come to the rescue of my neighbor who is threatened with death and I can prevent it? This is the obligation of everyone, God has commanded it; for what I like to have done for me I should also do for others. Answer: This kind of physical aid is what Peter wanted to give the Lord (Mt. 26:[51]). But hear what Christ did: The Lord restored health to the one whom Peter struck and injured out of physical love for Christ—so strongly did the Lord reject any help or love by which others might be harmed or hated, as he still does today.
Yes, we are to love only, and not to hate our worst enemies (Lk. 6:[35]), even if they injure us collectively or individually. “If one member suffers, all suffer together,” says Paul (1 Cor. 12:[26]).

Out of Christ’s love come forbearance and love, hence we are not to injure anyone out of love for another; otherwise we abandon love for our enemies and miss the way of Christ, and only an outward alliance of mutual help as practiced in the whole world would result: If you help me, I will help you. But wherever true Christians can come to the aid of others in distress, be they friend or foe, if it can be given without injury to anyone, there it will never cease or be lacking among believers and followers of Christ because true Christian love injures nobody, neither friend nor foe.

103
People may also say: It cannot be proved by any Scripture that one should not carry a sword. In reply, one should know that it is made abundantly clear in many ways in the Scripture when revenge, war, anger and force are forbidden. If those things are forbidden, then the weapons used for them are also forbidden. For if you are ordered to stop keeping hogs in order to become a town councilor, you will also be ordered to lay aside the cudgel used for the hogs. You want to be a Christian, but hypocritically carry the sword or other weapon to pretend you are not a Christian; you want to be a disciple of Christ, yet at the same time want to be seen as conforming to the world. But such two-faced, double-minded hypocrites, like mules—neither horse nor real donkey—who still want to please the world and hide behind its shield as brothers, are not servants of Christ but servants and slaves of the world to which they want to conform (Gal. 1:[10]).

104
They are quick to accuse us, as the Jews did Christ and his followers: They want to oppose the emperor, forbid interest-taking, be disobedient, have no government, be lords themselves and call themselves King of the Jews and the like. But in their intoxication and with overflowing malice, they are really accusing Christ and his followers, who are innocent and have put away the sword and ruling power and are sheep ready for slaughter. But let one of the children of the world and of all the supposed Christians, new and old,104 who want to keep the worldly sword, emerge [as a contender], then see whether they do not quarrel about earthly rulership and seek to dominate physically with their mercenaries. Would to God it were not so that each wants to rule in order that no one may lord it over him!

As for us, we simply remain servants like our Master and Christ, who came not to be served; 105 we cannot be concerned with worldly authority. We need not worry about governments; there are enough rulers to be found. Let us simply see to it that we remain Christians, endure, and win the victory of the Lamb to the glory of the Father and Christ.

105
Paul the Apostle says, “It is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:[20]), and, “Christ is my life” (Phil. 1:[20])—in whom Christ, and not he himself, lives. Even if a person were also a ruler, Christ would indeed verify in him exactly that which Christ himself did, namely, that his kingdom is not of this world (Jn. 18:[36]), from which he fled when he was about to be made king and a high ruler (Jn. 6:[15]), that he refused to judge in the division of the inheritance (Lk. 12:[14]), and that he refused to pass the death sentence on the woman taken in adultery (Jn. 8:[11]). In every believer in whom Christ lives he still does not do such things.

106
Christ commands that forgiveness of sins in his name be proclaimed to the whole world (Lk. 24:[47]), and in our Christian faith we confess and say: one holy Christian church, in which there is forgiveness of sins. All of this would be futile, yes, the preaching of repentance would be useless, if we Christians were to pass a death sentence, because sinners would thereby be deprived of this grace. Therefore, judgment over life and limb is not the business of the Christian. If it is our duty to forgive sinners their sins and transgressions for the sake of the name of Jesus Christ, the just judge, how can we then condemn sinners to death?


104. Probably Protestant and Catholic.
105. Mt. 10:45 and elsewhere.

Christ’s words would also be futile when he told Peter how often to forgive his brother (Mt. 18:[22]). For if we were to keep the law of Moses according to the letter, nothing could be forgiven the offender. For as soon as the sinner’s sin is revealed, the verdict of the law would also have to be pronounced on him.

107
The world has its laws; the Jews or the people of Moses had in their time their special system of laws over life and limb, far different from the world’s system. Christians and their Gospel also have their special system of laws and order given by Christ their King, not in accord with the Jewish law. For the kingdom of Christ is not physical but spiritual; it is a kingdom of peace and of the spiritual Melchizedek, where there is no strife nor lawsuit, nor use of the sword. Therefore the one must not be mixed with the other—the sword of the world put together with Moses and Christ, as the supposed Christians do. It is as harmonious as considering turnip greens and peas to be one and the same thing.
O blindness and confusion!—Amen.

This translation first appeared in the January, 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

***********************************************************



_________________
Lee Chapel

 2010/1/2 10:04Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
(91)When David had the ark of God brought out of the house of Abinadab into the house of Obededom, and the oxen stumbled and Uzzah put hishand on the ark of God and held it, “the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there” because of his wicked deed, and he died there by the ark (2 Sam. 6:[1ff]). This shows and represents figuratively that God neither wants nor needs men to defend, fight for, or preserve the Gospel with a human arm or the power of the sword, as though he were a god like an idol, unable to defend his Word and gospel himself.




And yet it is suggested elsewhere that those who have earthly power and authority are minsiters of God, [b]for the sake of Christians[/b]?


And so, Christians may enjoy the protection of the State but should warn those that protect them(those that offer protection through the sword) that God will destroy them for it also?



In the book of Acts we read of a similar situation:



"And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.


And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.


Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul."


Acts 21:30-32(KJV)



I suppose then, that after the speech that Paul made following this, he might have also(if he did have the same attitude as appeears the author would have us to take) he might also have, first thanked the captain for keeping law and order, and then warned him of God's judgment against him for it?



A short time ago a story was presented on the forums of a herd of elephants that were attacking people in india who had otherwise been persecuting Christians, while the elephants were leaving the Christians unharmed.


All of us were happy to read about this.


And yet I wonder if some would rejoice that Elephants can be ministers of God for justice on earth, but not that humans can, for then would God have to destroy them for it, because their acts of justice are evil?

I wonder.






[i]edited to add a portion of the qoute above that was unintentionaly left off at first[/i]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/2 11:03Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
I suppose then, that after the speech that Paul made following this, he might have also(if he did have the same attitude as appeears the author would have us to take) he might also have, first thanked the captain for keeping law and order, and then warned him of God's judgment against him for it?







I'd like to say something more to clarify what I meant above. The author of the aritcles that are being presented writes this, which was posted earlier:



Quote:
(84)For in the great house of this world there are not only gold and silver vessels [but also wood and clay], some for honorable and some for ignoble use (2 Tim. 2:20), namely, the vessels of wrath, that is, servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation





This above is the reason I suggest the author might believe that God would condemn the soldiers for rescuing Paul, perhaps for:

1) not allowing Paul martyrdom, for he writes elsewhere that Chrsitians are [i]...innocent and have put away the sword and ruling power and are sheep ready for slaughter[/i]

or

2) if realising that Paul had already been appointed by God to go to Rome, he may have suggested that God would condemned the soldiers, for not allowing God to intervene in some obvious and miraculous way, for he writes elsewhere that God:



Quote:
...neither wants nor needs men to defend, fight for, or preserve the Gospel with a human arm or the power of the sword, as though he were a god like an idol, unable to defend his Word and gospel himself.





Anything, but what Paul had already written, that they were the ministers of God to Paul, for his good.


But the author calls them [i]..servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation[/i].


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/2 13:00Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

Brother ChrisJD,

Would it be possible for you to use the number that goes with the paragraph you are quoting from? It will help with understanding context and in responding to your post.

Thank you for your thoughts, even though we may disagree.
lee

Quote:
96
The supreme Lord, Christ himself, did not come to reign, conquer, pass judgment or rule, nor have anybody brought before him for judgment (Jn. 5:[45]), nor did he himself want to bring charges against anyone; on the contrary, he himself served, and let himself be ruled, attacked, sentenced and condemned to death, and accepted injustice; in brief, he suffered. That is our mirror into which we want to look, in which we want to see whether we have the form of Christ or not. Then the dissension over government would soon be eliminated.


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2010/1/2 22:20Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Brother Lee, I added the numbers that you mentioned to the qoutes for two of my last posts. I could go back and do the others if you think it will be nescessary and I will try to use them if I qoute the articles in the future. Thank you for the suggestion!


Brother about this,



Quote:
96 The supreme Lord, Christ himself, did not come to reign, conquer, pass judgment or rule, nor have anybody brought before him for judgment (Jn. 5:[45]), nor did he himself want to bring charges against anyone; on the contrary, he himself served, and let himself be ruled, attacked, sentenced and condemned to death, and accepted injustice; in brief, he suffered. That is our mirror into which we want to look, in which we want to see whether we have the form of Christ or not. Then the dissension over government would soon be eliminated.




But too, doesn't the Lord [b]now rule[/b] from Heaven? Even with a rod of Iron(Ps 2:6-9)? Doesn't He administer both mercy and justice in the Earth(Ps 45:1-7)? truth, and meekness, and righteousness?


Wouldn't these be good qualities in a earthly ruler?


When the Lord Jesus told the disciples that they were not to be like the gentiles, and [i]lord[/i] their authority over each other, He did not say they should not have authority, or that having authority was evil. He said that whoever would be [b]great[/b] among them, would be [i]their servant[/i]. Paul had authority(2Co 10:8), but excercised it as a servant(2Co 4:5).


And the Roman Centurion rightly recognised that the Lord Jesus, just as himself, both had authority, and was under authority(Luke 7:6-9)(see also John 5:27).


Yes, I think that if it could be admitted that an earthly ruler could rule with those qualities and not be considered evil for having authority, then some of the dissension over government might cease.





























_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/3 12:25Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:



ChrisJD wrote:

Quote:
When the Lord Jesus told the disciples that they were not to be like the gentiles, and lord their authority over each other, He did not say they should not have authority, or that having authority was evil. He said that whoever would be great among them, would be their servant. Paul had authority(2Co 10:8), but excercised it as a servant(2Co 4:5).





ChrisJD,
How did Jesus show this authority; by example? Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and taught them that the greatest among them would serve the rest. He did not show his authority by running his enemies through with a sword or instructing his disciples to do so.

Paul did not fight with the sword or instruct any Christian to do so. How did he serve by obeying the Lord and preaching the gospel of Christ from prison?

Not one disciple, (all by the way taught the word of God with authority) taught that a Christian should take up the sword of the flesh to fight against evil.

“90
Peter the Apostle says, “To this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow in his steps. He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly” (1 Pet. 2:[21-23]).96 See, that is the road on which Christians must also walk. They must suffer here without reviling when reviled, or threatening when they suffer, but commit everything to God, the just Judge (1 Pet. 3:[9]; Ps. 7:[2 ff]). “For the Lord is an avenger in all these things” (1 Thess. 4:[6]).
How could they then use the power of the sword, if he is to be Judge and Avenger? Absolutely not!”


Jesus led by example as did the disciples, 1Peter 2:21-23; no where in the teachings of Christ or the disciples, are ‘Christians’ told to do otherwise.
Romans 12:20-21
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Thes. 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.


Instead he tells us that evil will wax worse and worse:
2 Tim. 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


That evil will make war on the saints and overcome them:
Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Again we receive the warning that was given to Peter, the sword will not deliver but cause our defeat:
Rev. 13:8-10
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


But instead of commanding us to use the sword he assures us of the Lord’s faithfulness to keep us from evil.
2 Thes. 3:3
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.


The word makes it very clear that our battle against evil is not to be fought with the sword of the flesh for evil only gains strength and prevails when fought against with flesh and blood.
2 Cor. 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)


Instead we are clearly told that to fight evil we must be equipped with the whole armor of God:
Ephes. 6:10-20
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


There is no doubt that we are at war, but not against flesh and blood: Eph. 6:12

We will only prevail with: Eph. 6:13-14

Stand therefore!


One more point I would like to make clear so all will understand that the bad rap that non resistance has received by some on this thread is not true.

We do teach that Christians are to resist evil, but not through the flesh and not by trying to overcome evil with evil. We resist with the weapons that our Lord Jesus Christ instructed us to use, those that make us strong in the Lord and in the power of His might:
Eph. 6:10-20


No mention of overcoming evil with the sword of the flesh, in fact, just the opposite.

May the Lord’s Love and Peace keep you all

lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2010/1/4 18:30Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4517


 Re:

Hi chapel...

Quote:
How did Jesus show this authority; by example? Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and taught them that the greatest among them would serve the rest. He did not show his authority by running his enemies through with a sword or instructing his disciples to do so.


Yes, he did this in regard to His disciples. However, he also used a whip that He Himself created and drove out those who were selling things at the Temple.
Quote:

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

John 2:14-17


I find this interesting. However, at the same time, we aren't talking about an example in regard to those who are acting in defense of someone else (such as a wife, child or a helpless stranger) when they are being unlawfully targeted by someone else. Do you see the difference in the setup of the analogy?

Quote:
Paul did not fight with the sword or instruct any Christian to do so. How did he serve by obeying the Lord and preaching the gospel of Christ from prison?


Yes, but at the same time, many of the same people who are espousing what they presume to be "Christian non-resistance" also espouse various degrees of "Christian non-involvement." Yet Paul used his knowledge of the Roman legal system by invoking his Roman citizenship to avoid being an unlawful beating (Acts 22:27). This might have had something to do with the letter of the Roman law, which Paul certainly understood. His beating would have been unlawful. When testifying to Festus, Paul said that he did not do anything unlawful (according to the Law of Moses, against the Temple or against Roman law) and, if he had, would not have refused to die (Acts 25:8-11). Later on, he used that same Roman system to "appeal unto Caesar" in order to take the Gospel to Rome and Caesar's house (Acts 25:11 and Acts 26:32).

Do you see the difference. Paul was avoiding an UNLAWFUL beating by using his "rights" under the Roman legal system.
Quote:
Not one disciple, (all by the way taught the word of God with authority) taught that a Christian should take up the sword of the flesh to fight against evil.


Using this same rhetorical logic, we do not find any direct command that says a believer cannot defend a family member (under his care), the weak, or actively participate as a member of the military, police or participate/engage in or with a government.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/1/4 19:19Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy