SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

HI Chris,

Your Scripture quote from Luke 21:20-22 is totaly out of context, unless perhaps you are a preterist? Given that your main Scripture has no context, you have turned it into a pretext, unless of course you are a preterist and if you were, I would still disagree with you, apologies to deepthinker of course :)...........brother Frank

 2009/12/28 18:59
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hey Frank,

Quote:
Your Scripture quote from Luke 21:20-22 is totaly out of context, unless perhaps you are a preterist? Given that your main Scripture has no context, you have turned it into a pretext, unless of course you are a preterist




Frank, I don't think it is nescesary to be a Preterist or Partial Preterist to understand the passage in Luke 21:20-22 as having been fulfilled in Ad 67-70. I think the verses following it make it distinct to have seen it already being fulfilled, particularly that they would be carried away into all nations.

The Lord Jesus said there would be wrath upon that people and Paul said that the wrath had come upon them to the uttermost.

This, and the Lord Jesus told the parable in Mat 22:1-7 which appears to have in view the same thing. A similar parable is told in Matthew 21:33-40 and the Pharasiees give a reply that is very similar also. And the scripture says they percieved that it was about them(Mat 21:45).



Wish you well,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/28 22:41Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

“My kingdom is not of this world,” said Christ to Pilate, “otherwise my servants would stand and fight and contend for me” (Jn. 18:[36]). Thus, our King, Jesus Christ, is a spiritual king and has a spiritual realm.
Therefore his sword must not be physical but spiritual. A spiritual kingdom cannot employ a physical sword. For worldly rulers wield a physical sword, since their realm is also physical. Therefore all who would defend themselves with force and the sword are certainly not of
the realm of Christ. For his servants do not position themselves thus, as he himself says here. And because his reign is not of this world, but the government is worldly, the two can neither merge nor be alike. And those who quarrel, battle and fight for the kingdom of this world
indicate clearly that they are not Christians, for the kingdom of this

30. Jn. 17:18; 20:21.
31. Lk. 16:25.

world is the devil’s realm; he is a prince of this world, as Christ says (Jn.
12:[31])."



I would like to treat with some of this that has been raised if I may.

Firstly, a clause of this passage has not been included with the quotation: in the passage the Lord goes on to say the reason they would fight if His kingdom was then of this world, that is, if it were to enter and be carried through by means and power of this world: the reason given is that He should not be delivered to the Jews. His Kingdom was not of this world, it was to come through death, and resurrection, by an altogether unknown and Heavenly power(1Co 2:7-9) and not by overwhelming force of an earthly nature, or even the power of angels from on High(Mat 26:53-54). How else would the [b]scriptures be fulfilled[/b]?


Secondly, the rest of the passage adds this in addition, saying [b]but now[/b] His kingdom was not from there, that is, the earth. And this was so at the time; the Lord’s rule had no origin from earth, it did not enter from the earth and it was not sustained or carried through in its entrance into the earth by any earthly power.
But [b]afterwards[/b], after He had accomplished the entrance of His Kingdom into the earth, for the Kingdom of Heaven was then near when He began preaching and was brought through into the earth by His work(Luke 17:20-21, 22:15-18, 24:28-30, 33-35) and continued through, by and with the Holy Spirit(Acts 1:1-5, 2:30-33, Romans 14:17) after He had risen from the dead He told the disciples that

[b]all[/b] authority or power in Heaven [b]and[/b] [u]on earth[/u] had been given to Him.

While it is of no dispute that Christ is The Spiritual King that rules over the spiritual realm, yet has His Kingdom come into the earth also, where His subjects are now, as the scripture says of God[i]I will dwell in them, and walk in them[/i]. And of Christ, that He must reign, until He has put all enemies under His feet. The Lord’s Throne is in Heaven, and the Earth is His footstool. And Jerusalem is the city of the Great King.

And so now is Christ already called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and the scripture says to all lesser kings [i]serve the Lord with fear, and kiss the Son, lest He be angry[/i].


He is before all things, and all things were created by
Him, and for Him, whether they are thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers. And by Him all things consist. And by Him has God reconciled all things, whether they are in Heaven. [b]Or in earth.[/b]

While it is true that Christs’ Kingdom is spiritual(Eph 1:17-23), it is also true of Satan’s(Eph 6:12). Both exist simultaneously in this present [b]physical world[/b](Col 1:13). And both exercise power in the earth(Ps 47:8, Rev 17:18). While Satan may at times gain more influence over an earthly power, and that power become more thoroughly corrupted and under evil, yet Paul says that there is [b]no power[/b] but of God. And that whoever resists the power, resists the ordinance of God.

Inasmuch as he says to resist is to resist God’s ordinance, it means to resist is to resist Christ’s rule also.

Because Christ has [b]now[/b] all power, in Heaven. And on Earth.

Of course there are times when it may be appropriate to resist earthly powers, if their ordinances become contrary to God’s or as when their rule has become especially demonic, certain forms of resistance can be appropriate. However bearing the sword, according to Paul, is not one of them(an ordinance to be resisted), but is something that they do, as he calls them, being ministers of God.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/28 22:49Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
A spiritual kingdom cannot employ a physical sword.





This is not true(Mat 22:7).


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/28 22:55Profile









 Re:

HI Chris, you say that the verses that follow Luke 21:20 make it distinct to have seen it already fulfilled. Here are such verses.......

Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.
Luk 21:32 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.

You have no context whatsover Chris. Were all things fulfilled? Were there heavanly signs recorded? Did they see the Son of Man come in all His glory? Did that particualr generation pass away and see all of those things Chris? At least the preterist tries to grapple with these Scriptures, you did not, you merely islolated a passage to prove your point. I would say again, you created a pretext. I love you brother, but you must have context when engaging the Scriptures. Quite simply, the Apostles were not involved in human warfare, they did not fight for Israel and they did not join the Roman armies. What Christian would join themselves by oath to the God of war, Mars, which every Roman soldier had to do? Dont you know that for this very reason, tens of thousands of Christians were slaughtered because they would not swear, with oil, once a year in the public square, that Caesur was a God? Anyways, that is old ground, I think I even shared the Roman oath somewhere in this thread, but the thread is too big to find it :) Peace brother :).....Frank

 2009/12/28 23:57
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
HI Chris, you say that the verses that follow Luke 21:20 make it distinct to have seen it already fulfilled. Here are such verses.......



Frank, this is what I actually said:

"I think the verses following it make it distinct to have seen it already being fulfilled, [b][u]particularly[/u] that they would be carried away into all nations[/b].


Why did you ommitt that verse from your list Frank?



I think these and the other verse I mentioned demonstrate that the Lord Jesus [b]warned[/b] the disiples that God was going to destroy the nation and that they should [b]flee[/b] when they see that coming.


Paul clearly says that the wrath of God had come upon the Jews to the uttermost Frank. Do you think, even if it were permissable for the Apostles who were otherwise completely devoted to the ministry and unfit to be partaking in anything else, war or otherwise, do you think they would have been found fighting against God?

What is the point of arguing about this Frank?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/29 4:33Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

- Luke 21:20(KJV)


I think this would have been a good reason not to fight for Jerusalem, for the Apostles or for anyone else.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/29 4:40Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

I appologise for another response in this current exchange but I wanted to say something to Frank and hopefully help to clear any misunderstanding in general.


"What is the point of arguing about this..."

First I appologise for the tone of my last response to you Frank. I think I could have written much better than that. I'm sorry about that.

The point that I've been trying to get at is that I don't believe that the early disciples and Apostles and the siege of Jerusalem can be used as a litmus test for the things that the Justice had put forward about defending one's nation.


I think that particular history is a non-sequitur as far as the argument goes. The reason for that, which I was trying to draw out, is the warnings that were given by Christ and the Apostles regarding the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the wrath of God(whether it was still future or for then or even soemthing of both). And that becuase of those things, the early disciples would not have even thought of defending Jerusalem, whether participating in such a thing in general was permissable or not.


I hope that makes more sense of what I was trying to say.


Thanks!


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/29 17:23Profile









 Re:

I would like to add.

Chrisjd has been doing an excellent job of trying to balance out the two extremes on this issue. I have remained silent for awhile other than my postings from more learned sources.

I will restate what I have stated before.

The truly "Christian" understanding of this is this:

Christians should be able to choose to either serve in Gov military, police etc., or choose to refrain. Neither side should judge the other as being against the commands of Christ.
Both sides should pray and respect and support the other. If this were so then it wouldn;t be "sides" but rather "the body" in action.

This as well as what I have previously put in this thread are my stances. Christians who are in the "Government" and have to carry out difficult life/death decisions need our prayers and support, not our condemnations.

 2009/12/29 17:44
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi thingsabove...

Quote:
Christians should be able to choose to either serve in Gov military, police etc., or choose to refrain. Neither side should judge the other as being against the commands of Christ.
Both sides should pray and respect and support the other. If this were so then it wouldn;t be "sides" but rather "the body" in action.


I agree with this sentiment.

My wife read through this thread recently, and she said that it reminded her of the story of The Little Red Hen. The story goes that a little red hen was going about all of the work to bake some bread. She continuously asked if anyone wanted to help with the various processes for baking bread. "[i]Who will help me plant the seeds[/i]," asked the little red hen. "[i]Not I[/i]," said the little dog, cat and duck. After the seeds had grown, the hen asked, "[i]Who will help me gather the wheat[/i]?" "[i]Not I[/i]," said the little dog, cat and duck. After the wheat was gathered, the little red hen asked, "[i]Who will help me take the wheat to the mill to be ground into flour[/i]?" "Not I," said the little dog, cat and little duck. I think that you get the picture. This went on throughout the process UNTIL the bread was baked and ready for eating. At this point, the dog, cat and little duck wanted to help eat the bread. They wanted the benefits...with none of the work that it took to make it. My wife thought that it was ironic that people would speak against military service or government involvement in a forum that exists because such interaction was established by God through military and governmental means.

Now, I explained to my wife that such believers certainly have a right to a clear conscience in regard to the extent to which we can or cannot be involved in government here on Earth (or in the defense of a family). I told her that we should never look down upon those who have a view that differs from our own if they base that opinion on Scripture and a clear conscience before God. I certainly understand the convictions of those who hold to the various peculiar views of "non-resistance." Yet I agree with you, thingsabove, that we should not look down upon those who have a somewhat (or often, a [i]slightly[/i]) different opinion about how this is put into practice. Thank you (and ChrisJD) for articulating this so well.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2009/12/29 18:29Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy