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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Lord help us all

Quote:
waltern wrote:

Dear Appolus (Frank):

Your question should be directed to the person who made it to you, not to me.

I am not Leo (Leo_Grace). He is the one that made the statement.

Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

appolus wrote:
HI Waltern, respectfully, I did not jump back into this post to rehash what has already been said, I believe it would be fruitless. I can agree to disagree with you on this subject and I respect your right to have any position that you have. However, as I said, I do not believe I have ever disagreed more with a commnet from a regular on SI than this statement........

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."





The sad thing is he did, Waltern.
YOU even quoted his response that he "directed to the person who made it"... to Leo at 2009/12/19 11:02 when you interrupted their conversation!!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/12/19 18:33Profile









 Re:

HI Waltern, you kinda barged into a question I had asked Leo. Now, I do not particularly mind that, it just gets a little bizarre when you then tell me to direct the question to Leo, which of course I did :)........brother Frank

 2009/12/19 18:47









 Re:

HI Maryjane, the question at issue is not about loving evil or loving sin, not even close, the statement in question is, well let me cut it down even further.......

""Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God."

I totaly and unequivically disagree with that statement..............Frank

 2009/12/19 18:52









 Re: Pacificism NOT





Sorry, Frank:

I do agree with Leo, and the statement that he made.

Specifically:
“Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

[color=990000][b]My statement to you Frank is really about the validity of this entire thread.[/color][/b]

As far as Leo's statement is concerened, I would add more to it.

“I would even go further, and state that those who are deceived by Satan, and as such do his bidding, that come against me or my family and loved ones with the evil intent to kill or harm my loved ones, will be dealt with in like manner.”

As I said, without the whole counsel of God, the subject of pacifism is meaningless.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

appolus wrote:
HI Waltern, you kinda barged into a question I had asked Leo. Now, I do not particularly mind that, it just gets a little bizarre when you then tell me to direct the question to Leo, which of course I did :)........brother Frank

 2009/12/19 19:00









 Re:

Wltern writes......

"My statement to you Frank is really about the validity of this entire thread."

Not my thread brother. As I said, there are clear disagreements and I am gonna guess that this is not gonna change any time soon :) I am glad we cleared up the other point and you have made your opinion clear, God bless you brother......Frank

 2009/12/19 19:05
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear MaryJane,

Quote:
I think I see what you are saying with this. I agree that when we are commanded to love that does not include the evil of sin. We are called to view sin as the Father does and He views all sin as wicked and evil. I think that we should resist evil absolutely, however I do not think that means that we have to take up arms and seek to cause harm to the persons.


Thank you for your kind response. You understood what I meant. But I guess we must differ on the concept of how to resist evil, for I would willingly take up arms to defend those I love, including you, Appolus, chapel, and others who may disagree with me.

However, this is where most of the contention arises, I think: the second half of your last sentence is grossly unfair to those who don't believe in non-resistance. If I do take up arms in defense of those whom I love (as God leads), it will never be to "seek to cause harm" -- no Christian would ever have such a goal in his heart. It would be to defend and protect. The action is one of love for those whom God has placed under my care, or within my power to protect. Causing harm will never be the objective, although it could be the unavoidable result.

God Bless.

 2009/12/19 20:24Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Leo:

you wrote:the second half of your last sentence is grossly unfair to those who don't believe in non-resistance. If I do take up arms in defense of those whom I love (as God leads), it will never be to "seek to cause harm" -- no Christian would ever have such a goal in his heart. It would be to defend and protect. The action is one of love for those whom God has placed under my care, or within my power to protect. Causing harm will never be the objective, although it could be the unavoidable result.
___

You know brother I can see where what I wrote may have come off as offensive to you are those who feel that they can and should defend with physical force if in the situation. For that please accept my apology. I do not agree with all that some on the thread have said and shared, but I know that you and the others love the Lord with all your heart and I trust Him in this. I understand that even in defending your family you would not be seeking to harm any individual out of anger or hatred. Brother I still do not have all the answers to these "What If" questions. I still do not understand how a christian can demonstrate loving someone while killing them???(I know that is not what you are saying, these are question I am seeking to still come to understand in Christ Jesus.)

These are things that I have been praying about, as for what the Lord is showing me I do think we differ on this issue, but I still love you brother and value you and the others that have contributed here to this thread.

God Bless
mj

 2009/12/19 23:25Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Thank you, MJ.

 2009/12/20 9:58Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re: A real life story

This is a true story that I thought I should post in relation to the thoughts on this thread. It happened about 20 years ago:

[i]A middle-aged Christian named Danny belonged to a large church that he attended with many other fellow Christians on a regular basis. At the end of each Sunday service, Danny, together with dozens of his brothers in the church, would ride the public bus, Bibles in hand, for the ride home. Danny was a small man, short of stature and scrawny, and his brothers from the church were relatively bigger and well-built physically.

One Sunday, on the bus ride home from church, a non-believer took the same bus and started picking on little Danny. The bully insulted and derided Danny verbally, punched his thighs, slapped him in the back of his head a few times, all the while making fun of his Protestant faith. Danny took in all of this abuse without fighting back. He knew that as a Christian he was to exercise forbearance and humility in the face of an attack on his person. Danny did not hate the bully for the man was not of the faith, and was acting out of ignorance. What did disturb Danny immensely was the fact that there were dozens of able-bodied Christian "brothers" with him on that bus who wouldn't lift a finger to help him. Some of them simply averted their gaze while others (he found out later) prayed that God would intervene in Danny's behalf while they themselves did nothing.

Danny was deeply impacted by the event, not by what the bully did, but by what his "brothers" did not do. Danny was extremely disappointed that so many Christians on the bus, who openly professed a new life in Christ, were unwilling, when the opportunity arose, to "lay down their lives for their friend" (Jn 15:13). Danny said that if it was someone else being attacked, he would have gladly given his life in defense of that friend.[/i]

He shared this experience with a Christian leader who then shared it with us.

We are called to be the salt and the light of the earth -- to bring glory to God that others may praise him and draw near. When we fail to act, the salt has lost its saltiness... (Mt 5:13-16)

 2009/12/20 11:05Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re: Concerning the Sword

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

60
Paul says to the church, “We are not lords over your faith, but we
work with you for your joy” (2 Cor. 2:[24]). And Peter obligates the
elders and admonishes them to “tend willingly the flock of God that is
your charge, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over
those in your charge but by being examples to the flock” (1 Pet. 5:[2]).

61
“The weapons of our warfare are not carnal,” says Paul, “but
spiritual” (2 Cor. 10:[4]). In other places he says the armor of God is the
sword of the Spirit, namely, God’s word, the breastplate of righteousness
and love, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation and hope (Eph. 6:[14-
17]; 1 Thess. 5:[8]). That is the arsenal of armor for Christians and the
weapons of the knights of Christ.

The weapons of earthly power and its knights are carnal and not
spiritual; they are swords, spears, guns and halberds; they are javelins
and clubs; they are murderous weapons of war to take lives. These two
classes of weapons cannot exist together. Since they are essentially
different, they cannot both be handled by one man. He who wants the
one must leave the other.

No man can serve two masters at the same time. No one can travel on
two roads at the same time. No one can set his foot down at more than
one place. Here, too, the weapons of Christians and those of the world,
the weapons of the Spirit and those of the flesh, cannot be fused together.
Just as what is stated above cannot be done, neither can a Christian be
a worldly ruler, or a worldly ruler a Christian. Christians do not fight in
human fashion, says Paul (2 Cor. 10:[3]), but the world and its rulers
wage war and fight solely in human fashion. Christians fight against the
devil and sin and not against a human being; the world and its
governments fight for honor and possessions against other lands and
their peoples; they daily let the devil and sin overcome them and take
them prisoner. Christians contend for a heavenly inheritance and
homeland, while worldly powers strive for an earthly inheritance and
homeland. Christians fight for an imperishable heavenly crown, the
absolute opposite of the other. Christians are a spectacle to the world,
refuse to the world, and every man’s outcast—they are fools for Christ’s
sake (1 Cor. 4:[9-10]); rulers rank high in the world, are illustrious and
assured of honor, and consequently, since everyone lifts his hat, they go
far wrong.

62
The sword is the absolute opposite of and contrary to true love (which
is the first commandment in the church of Christ, the head and the
summit of the Christian life). For the apostle Paul says, “Love is patient
and kind” (1 Cor. 13:[4]). But the sword and its servants are quickly
angered, abrupt and rough, short of temper like an enemy. Love is not
envious, but the sword is not only envious, but returns evil for evil from
that time on. Love is not resentful, is not puffed up; the sword and its
servants clash with one another and puff themselves up with great
power and might. Love does not seek its own gain, whereas the sword
protects, seeks and preserves its own self interest (Hos. 13; Rom. 13).
Love is not easily provoked to anger; the sword is nothing but pure
wrath, and a tool and instrument of wrath (Job 19:[29]). Love compels no
one to do wrong; the sword is vengeance itself and repays every wrong
with wrong (Rom. 13:[4]). Love endures all things; the sword endures
nothing, but returns blow for blow. Paul says, “If I had everything and
did not have love, I would gain nothing” (1 Cor. 13:[1-7]). Worldly
authority, if it had everything but the sword, would be useless as
governmental authority.
To sum up: Love has precedence among Christians, but in the world
the sword has precedence;42 therefore Christian love and the worldly
sword cannot exist together, but the sword, and those who serve and
wield it, are situated parallel to Christ’s kingdom—outside his church
and not in it. However, since it is still day, they may still enter in this
manner: if they turn and become like children (Mt. 18:[3]).

63
Paul writes to Titus, “Remind them to be submissive to rulers,
obeying the government and ready for every good work” (note: “good
work”) (Titus 3:[1]). Thereby everything is excluded that is evil, contrary
to the Gospel, and against faith and conscience; he does not want us to
be ready to do such things.

64
The Apostle Peter teaches: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every
human institution, whether it be to the king as supreme, or to governors
as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who

42. This phrase “but in the world the sword has precedence” is missing in Friedmann,
but found in Cod. EAH 227.

do right. For it is God’s will that by doing right you should put to silence
the ignorance of foolish men. Live as those who are free, yet without
using your freedom as a pretext for evil” (1 Pet. 2:[13-16]).43 Thus they all
teach submissiveness—but, however, as Peter himself did: When he was
forbidden to preach, and ordered to do wrong, he said, “We must obey
God rather than men” (Acts 5:[29]).


Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego did likewise (Dan. 3:[16 ff]), and
also Mattathias and his men. When a tyrannical power tried to force
them to act contrary to the law of God, he said in a loud voice: “Even if
all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have
chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of
his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant
of our fathers. Far be it from us to desert the law and the ordinances. We
will not obey the king’s words by turning aside from our religion to the
right hand or to the left.” (1 Macc. 2:[19-22]).

That is what the ancients did, that is what Peter did; yes, no Christian
has ever permitted himself to be forced to do anything contrary to God
and the faith. That is why from the beginning Christians have suffered so
much torture, pain and death at the hands of emperors and rulers.
Therefore, in whatever is right and Christian, to that extent we should
also show submission. It never occurred to the apostles to teach anything
more than that.

65
To the Thessalonians Paul writes: “The Lord will slay the Antichrist
with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the radiance of his
coming” (2 Thess. 2:[8]). He does not say with soldiers and weapons.

66
The Lord Christ revealed himself to the holy Apostle John, with a
two-edged sword issuing from his mouth44 (Rev. 1:16; 19:15). From this
we, his disciples and believers, learn that the sword does not belong in
our hands but in our mouth—that is, the sword of the Spirit, God’s word
(Heb. 4:[12]); Eph. 6:[17])—and that we should not bear or use the bloody
sword.

43. Text reads: 1 Pet. 1.
44. Friedmann (p. 269), reads: “in seiner handt.” However, Cod. EAH 227 reads: “in
seinem mundt,” which fits better into the context.

67
The twenty-four elders in the Revelation of John who appear around
the throne of God cast their crowns before the throne. Where, then, will
those be who, here and now, refuse to cast away their crowns but instead
want to be crowned and honored by all men, and for the sake of their
temporal crowns, tear and bite at each other so that blood flows? They
will not be among the elders gathered around the throne of God, but
around Lucifer’s throne. The elders say, “Worthy art thou, our Lord and
God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all
things” (Rev. 4:[10-11]). But these people regard themselves worthy of
receiving and accepting glory and honor and great reverence, which a
Christian can neither accept nor take to himself.

68
“If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leads into captivity
shall go into captivity; he that kills with the sword must be killed with
the sword. This calls for the patience and the faith of the saints” (Rev.
13:[9-10]).45 It is as though he wanted to say, only with this will they
overcome. For with patience Christians overcome all their foes. Patience
is a weapon for every conflict. John says, “Our faith is the victory that
overcomes the world” (1 Jn. 5:[4]). Therefore Christ teaches his followers
in the Gospel, “Possess your souls with patience”;46 nowhere does he
teach them to possess their souls with swords and spears like the tribes
of Iscariots and Pharisees, and the soldiers on the Mount of Olives who
seized Jesus and imprisoned him.47
That is why they had to be imprisoned in Vespasian’s prisons48 and
lose their lives by the sword of the Romans. And that would be a small
matter if only they did not also have to come before God’s judgment on
the Judgment Day. For they will have to appear there and be cast into the
prison of outermost darkness where there is eternal weeping and wailing
and gnashing of teeth.49

At this judgment they will first be judged by the two-edged sword of the Son of God (Rev. 1:[16]; 19:[15]) when he says to

45. Text reads: Rev. 3.
46. Lk. 21:19.
47. Mt. 26.
48. Reference to the Jewish war. The Book of Josephus Flavius was very popular among
the Anabaptists, and is still being read today among their spiritual descendants.
49. Mt. 13:42, 50; 25:30.

them: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the
devil and his angels” (Mt. 25:[41]).
This will be the lot of all who even today put the members of Christ
into prison and kill them because of their faith under the name of
heretics. This they will do, says Christ, because they have not known me
nor my Father (Jn. 16:[3]; 1 Cor. 2:[8]; 1 Jn. 3:[1]),50 as if he were saying:
therefore they will not know you either.

Continued:


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/12/22 13:09Profile





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