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 Re:

Quote:
I guess he changed his mind and now we are to baptize with a rifle.

:-P :-P Lee that was funny. The NRA would love this creed.

 2009/10/4 14:56









 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
OldJoe,

The OT also says one should kill those caught in bestiality (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15), adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)and kill the homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), so you better include these in your list...

ginnyrose



Interesting enough, it was the same OT that had the command "Thou shalt not kill", that commanded these to be killed.

How do you reconcile that?



Since Ginny hasn't answered yet, I would like an answer to this one from anyone on the pacifist side.

How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?

The only answer is that there is a time to kill, and a time not to kill. Each one will be accountable as to how they respond to God in such time as it comes. Saul was cast out as king because he refused to kill ALL the Amalekites. When each of our times come, we will all be accountable as to how we have reacted in it.

In both OT and NT it operates under the principle, "the death of one saves the lives of many". Similar to John 11:50-51.

Sometimes that death is by an evil hand (IE Caiaphus) and other times it is by a good hand (IE David), but in both cases it is moved of God.

 2009/10/4 14:57
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:
Ginnyrose & DT are right - we pick & choose from the O.T. as it suits us - which in turn, "cancels out" the N.T. Scriptures every time.


I agree. However, this is not only true of those who look to the Old Testament for validation , but also of those who pick and choose verses within the New Testament exclusively. I know individuals who will embrace one view because they perceive a particular passage that embraces such a view, but will reject or reinterpret another passage that contradicts the former view.

I think that it is flat out incorrect to accuse those of us who don't embrace all of the tenants of "non-resistance" as having looked for Scriptures that will validate a preexisting view. Many of us sought the Lord wholeheartedly and without prejudice in this matter, but still do not agree with some of the ideas of "non-resistance" (such as a complete and utter prohibition of serving in the military, defending the weak or defending your own family from violence).

Personally, I feel that there is order to the commands of God. The Scriptures in the New Testament prohibit lust. However, most would agree that it is perfectly acceptable (and even commendable) to desire physical intimacy with your spouse. In other words, the essence of former command is superseded by the latter.

Some have postulated that God HATES war. Yet our never-changing God commanded (and, at times, even [i]instigated[/i]) war under the Old Covenant. However, Revelation 19:11 says that the Lord will return to "judge and make war" against the remaining PHYSICAL armies of the Anti-Christ.

Is all physical resistance or violence prohibited in the New Testament? I wonder if any of those believers who spank their children would embrace such a notion? While it is wrong to hit someone with a rod without cause, most believers feel that the command to "raise up our child in the way they should go" supersedes any command against physical resistance. You can cite that [i]the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal[/i] all you want (and rightfully so in regard to our SPIRITUAL war in SPIRITUAL realms) -- but physical spanking seems to work quite well in the discipline of a child. Yet, it is still a form of physical resistance.

I think that it has been suggested that those who don't embrace "non-resistance" are looking for excuses to validate a preexisting condition of the heart. This couldn't be further from the truth! We are NOT bloodthirsty men. We are NOT looking for instances in which we can resort to violence. We are NOT bowing to the kingdoms of this world over the kingdom of God. We are not "heretics" hoping to unwittingly continue in "heresy." Such suggestions would be foolish. Rather, we are true believers who have prayerfully considered this issue, studied the Word diligently, and have simply arrived at a somewhat different conclusion that the "non-resistance" brethren. I don't see any prohibition from military service, defending the weak or defending your family as being the conclusion from any of the Scripture passages that have been presented by the non-resistant brethren. As such, I can walk with a clear conscience before God.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/4 15:19Profile









 Re:

Jesus left us the New Testament and if I ever find one Scripture for killing my enemy - I'll post it.


'His' wars were given to the people normally approved by the true prophets.
Sometimes Israel would get into wars that were not His Will.
If this country were a true Theocracy as Israel sometimes was - I could see where God would fit into this or these wars - but it is not and has not been.


We're not talking anything near "spanking children" here - Come now - again, if I ever find one Scripture for killing my enemy - I'll post it.


 2009/10/4 15:34









 Re:

That's a Pro-Non-Resistance verse you gave Joe.

It goes along with - Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Revelation is about the last days and no where do you find the Saints physically resisting.

And the war that Chris mentions when Christ returns is Christ's war - so how on earth can that be compared to our wars?

How we have twisted His Word, especially those regarding "the last days" and our involvement in the last days governments and their wars and the Scriptures regarding "those days."

You both quoted from the Revelation and I'm just answering with That Book in view. Very much so.


Thanks.


 2009/10/4 15:50
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

We are talking about "resistance" here. If we are NEVER supposed to resort to any sort of physical resistance, then Christian parents are PROHIBITED from ever spanking their children. The point? There are passages that seem to flat out reject certain things that are superseded by a more supreme need or concept. We are supposed to refrain from lust -- but desire physical intimacy with our spouses. We are supposed to hold our tongues, yet Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." We are supposed to not worry about our needs and realize that God will take care of us, yet men are commanded to take care of the needs of their families or be considered "worse than an infidel." We are not supposed to be "entangled with the affairs of this world," yet we are told that married couples WILL be concerned with the affairs of this world (I Corinthians 7). We are supposed to "turn the other cheek," but we are still supposed to discipline our children (and, often, with a rod of correction).

Do you see what I am trying to say? We understand the precepts that are pointed out in this thread in regard to calls against "resistance." Yet there are times in which men are given responsibility. Jesus did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it. As such, I believe that we still have certain responsibilities in regard to the "affairs of this world." We must work. We must pay our taxes. We must provide for the needs of our families.

While you might reject the notion of serving in the military, defending the weak, or defending a family member, I haven't seen a single verse presented by any of the "non-resistance" brethren that would indicate any universal and absolute prohibition as such.

I think that the bottom line is that we don't agree upon the meaning of those particular passages that are often quoted. The odd thing is that we each agree on the ultimate significance of those passages.

God raises up nations and requires that his children submit to the authority unto which He placed them. In addition, we can't pick and choose how we will be "non-resistant." Some people are far more violent and capable of "resistance" with their mouths than with a gun or sword.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/4 15:57Profile









 Re:



Title of Thread - [b]"Will You Kill or Be Killed?"[/b]

 2009/10/4 16:00
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

We can't pick and choose to say that God resists war...and then read that He will be leading an army in physical war. This will be a PHYSICAL war, because the blood of the dead will be pretty high in that valley.

Quote:
How we have twisted His Word, especially those regarding "the last days" and our involvement in the last days governments and their wars and the Scriptures regarding "those days."


Please don't claim that anyone is "twisting" the Word in this regard. This is my biggest problem with this thread. Chapel has already written that those who disagree with him are in "heresy" and are embracing a "damnable heresy." Is this really necessary? Many of us believe as we do with a clear conscience through just as honest prayer and Bible study as those who embrace "non-resistance." It is quite an accusation to claim that they are "twisting His Word" out of simple disagreement.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/4 16:03Profile









 Re:

The "war" that Christ comes down for with His Armies are GOD initiated and carried out so How can you compare that to the wars we are seeing in these "last days".
That 'is' twisting Scripture Chris.

Just as some pick and choose which of the OT events that concerned Israel Only - we do the same with one day saying "We're living in the last days" and at other times, like now - we don't want to see that fits into this topic 100%.

 2009/10/4 16:06









 Re:

by chapel on 2009/10/3 13:12:17

We could always look to the word of God, there is probably some direction for those who are serious about nonresistance.


Thou Shalt Not Kill

(Exodus 20:13 - Deuteronomy 5:17 - Matthew 19:16-19)

Nonresistance

Please note: the following Hebrew transliterations are used in this document:

Yeshua (Jesus)
Elohiym (God)
ha Mashiyach (the Christ)
ha Adon (the Lord)
Yahveh (the LORD)

Among the many heresies found within the realm of false Christianity here is one most outstanding. Before proceeding, the following references concerning truth, His word, knowing Him, and deception may be of interest to you.

"Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on Him, 'If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.' " Jn. 8:31-32.

"Yeshua answered them, and said, 'My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Elohiym, or whether I speak of Myself.' " Jn. 7:16-17.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." Jms. 1:22-25.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou has forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hos. 4:6.

"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth... Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." I Jn. 2:21,24.

"And hereby do we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth in not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of Elohiym perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." I Jn. 2:2:5.

"If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples. As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you: continue ye in My love. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have keep My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." Jn. 15:6-10.

"They profess that they know Elohiym; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Titus 1:16.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Mashiyach. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great things if his ministers also shall be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their own works. " II Cor. 11:13-15.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." II Tim. 3:13.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause Elohiym shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thes. 2:9-12.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying ha Adon that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways: by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Pet. 2:1-2.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of Elohiym, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves men shall arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31.

"But speak though the things which become sound doctrine." Titus 2:1.

"And the servant of ha Adon must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if Elohiym peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." II Tim. 2:26.

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9.


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The heresy about to be addressed which denies Yeshua is the common belief that Yeshua allows his children to kill their fellow man in wartime, or in self defense, or to protect the life of another, or by capital punishment, or by the abortion of an unwanted, unborn child. Most people stumble on the fact that contrary to the first covenant, which permitted certain acts of killing, the New Testament prohibits such acts. The gospel states that "the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Concerning the change that the New Testament has made from the Old, here are also some scriptures.


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" 'Behold, the days come,' saith Yahveh, 'that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.' " Jer. 31:31.

"Yahveh is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isa. 42:21.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Jn. 1:17.

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Heb. 7:11-12.

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto Elohiym." Heb. 7:19.

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith, ' Behold, the days come,' saith ha Adon, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith ha Adon. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith ha Adon; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know ha Adon: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' In that He saith, 'A new covenant,' He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:6-13.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14.

"For the grace of Elohiym that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Saviour Yeshua ha Mashiyach; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:11-14.

"By so much was Yeshua made a surety of a better testament." Heb. 7:22.

"And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for unto this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Mashiyach." II Cor. 3:13-14.

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' " Rom. 9:31-33.

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, 'Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.' Unto you therefore which believe He is precious; but unto them which be disobedient, 'the same is made the head of the corner,' and 'a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,' even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light." 1 Pet. 2:6-9.

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." Heb 7:26.


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It is completely wrong to justify killing by using examples from the Old Testament seeing that the New Testament has changed this. The following quotations from the New Covenant expose the fallacy of this commonly accepted, extremely serious, damnable heresy.


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"Do violence to no man..." Lk. 3:14.

"Recompense no man evil for evil..." Rom. 13:17.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Mt. 10:16.

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another..." Mt. 10:23.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' : But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry at his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:..." Mt. 5:21-22.

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of Elohiym." Jms 1:19-20.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth': But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Mt. 5:38-39.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy.' But I say unto you, 'Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...'" Mt. 5:43-45.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy; for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Lk 6:22-23.

"Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets. But I say unto you which hear, 'Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also." Lk. 6:26-29.

"Bless them which persecute you; bless and curse not." Rom. 12:14.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay,' saith ha Adon. Therefore 'if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:19-21.

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Ye have condemned and killed the just and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of ha Adon..." Jms. 5:1,6-7.

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not his mouth." Isa. 53:7.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Mashiyach also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps:... Who when He was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously." I Pet. 2:21,23.

"As it is written, 'For thy sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.' " Rom. 8:36.

"And I say unto you my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea I say unto you, fear Him." Lk. 12:4-5.

"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of Elohiym. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Mashiyach, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake." Php. 1:28-29.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it." Mt. 16:25.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shalt cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev. 2:10.

Please see also:

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Mt. 10:24.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of Elohiym, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." Php. 2:15.

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place unto the devil." Eph. 4:26-27.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through Elohiym to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of Elohiym, and bringing into captivity every though to the obedience of Mashiyach." II Cor. 10:3-5.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12.

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohiym, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Adon, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:9-11.

"And ye became followers of us, and of ha Adon, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of ha Adon not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to Elohiym-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to Elohiym from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Yeshua, which delivered us from the wrath to come." II Thes. 1:6-10.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Rev. 22:14-15.

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:21.

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev. 13:10.

"Then said Yeshua unto him, 'Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.' " Mt. 26:52.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn 3:15.

 2009/10/4 16:14





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