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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Frank,


"So, if I am reading you correctly, you are sating that if they did not have this specific warning that they would have stood and fought alongside the Scribes and the Pharisees and the ones who would eventually kill them in an effort to save their country?"



Not at all. I think that one of the passages that I posted indicates that it was those very people that were part of the reason for the King sending His armies to destroy the city:



"But when the king heard [i]thereof[/i], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

- Matthew 22:7(KJV)


See also Mat 27:24-25, Acts 18:6, 1Th 2:16


The things that the Lord Jesus told them were a distinct indication that the nation was under the Judgement of God.




_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/10/3 23:01Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

OldJoe,

The OT also says one should kill those caught in bestiality (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15), adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)and kill the homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), so you better include these in your list...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/10/3 23:35Profile









 Re:

Hi,

Just to add to Ginnyrose's point. If those who look to the OT to justify war and obvioulsy the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?........Frank

 2009/10/4 9:01









 Re:

Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
OldJoe,

The OT also says one should kill those caught in bestiality (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15), adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)and kill the homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), so you better include these in your list...

ginnyrose



Interesting enough, it was the same OT that had the command "Thou shalt not kill", that commanded these to be killed.

How do you reconcile that?

 2009/10/4 11:22









 Re:

Quote:
If those who look to the OT to justify war and obviously the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?

All valid questions and I have often thought of these things as well.

I find that we borrow from the Law when it suits our line of reasoning, doctrine, teaching etc.. I am speaking of "doing the works of the law" to justify our actions.

I must admit that I really don't know where we should draw the line. I know that killing a homosexual because he's homosexual is wrong. I know that because the Holy Spirit that circumcised my heart and placed His commandments there refrains me from carrying out acts of the law through the flesh. The law was weak through the flesh, God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh, took it out of the way so we live out through our new nature the Christ within. And from that renewed spirit we ought to love our neighbour as our selves. Since flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God what purpose would it be for me to kill a homosexual? He's already condemned. The more that he stays alive the better chance of him being saved, and that goes for all of us.

I may be off base and grasping at straws.

 2009/10/4 11:35









 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Hi,

Just to add to Ginnyrose's point. If those who look to the OT to justify war and obvioulsy the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?........Frank



Israel was a physical kingdom established to make God's physical power known unto men, the new thing called the Church is a spiritual kingdom in which the Christian is to make God's spiritual power known to men.

Israel is to justify God before men, the church is to see men justified before God.

Israel could not fulfill their role if such as these were allowed to live in their midst and therefore had to kill all that were such. The Christian is sent to such as these that the spiritual power of God may be made known.

However there are occasions where the two overlap.

WWI was about Israel, WWII was about Israel, WWIII will be about Israel, WWIV will be about Israel. There is a definite theme here... In each case Christians were or will be involved on the side of Christ.

WWI was to prepare Israel for the Jews.
WWII was to prepare the Jews to return to Israel
WWIII will be an attack on Isreal that will begin a 7 year peace.
WWIV will be the whole world against Israel as Christ returns.

Today there are also cases of overlap with regards to national sins and judgment, but that is a whole other case.

EDIT:
Today sodomy abounds because the church is corrupt. The Lord has turned this world over to these things to show those in the church of their own death. When the world is wholly turned over to these things as it is now, it's too late to fix by trying to eliminate 'problems', all we are to expect is judgment.

Besides, to be consistent with the OT, if we were to start up the executions anywhere, we would have to start in the pulpits and work our way out from there.

 2009/10/4 11:43









 Re:

Quote:

DeepThinker wrote:
Quote:
If those who look to the OT to justify war and obviously the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?

All valid questions and I have often thought of these things as well.

[b]I find that we borrow from the Law when it suits our line of reasoning, doctrine, teaching etc..[/b] I am speaking of "doing the works of the law" to justify our actions.

I must admit that I really don't know where we should draw the line. I know that killing a homosexual because he's homosexual is wrong. I know that because the Holy Spirit that circumcised my heart and placed His commandments there refrains me from carrying out acts of the law through the flesh. The law was weak through the flesh, God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh, took it out of the way so we live out through our new nature the Christ within. And from that renewed spirit we ought to love our neighbour as our selves. Since flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God what purpose would it be for me to kill a homosexual? He's already condemned. The more that he stays alive the better chance of him being saved, and that goes for all of us.

I may be off base and grasping at straws.




Not off base at all and thanks to ginnyrose as well.

GOD commanded they kill false prophets also.

He decides now, as with Ananias and Sapphira.

Ginnyrose & DT are right - we pick & choose from the O.T. as it suits us - which in turn, "cancels out" the N.T. Scriptures every time.

 2009/10/4 13:04
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Quote:

appolus wrote:
Hi,

Just to add to Ginnyrose's point. If those who look to the OT to justify war and obvioulsy the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?........Frank



Israel was a physical kingdom established to make God's physical power known unto men, the new thing called the Church is a spiritual kingdom in which the Christian is to make God's spiritual power known to men.

Israel is to justify God before men, the church is to see men justified before God.

Israel could not fulfill their role if such as these were allowed to live in their midst and therefore had to kill all that were such. The Christian is sent to such as these that the spiritual power of God may be made known.

However there are occasions where the two overlap.

WWI was about Israel, WWII was about Israel, WWIII will be about Israel, WWIV will be about Israel. There is a definite theme here... In each case Christians were or will be involved on the side of Christ.

WWI was to prepare Israel for the Jews.
WWII was to prepare the Jews to return to Israel
WWIII will be an attack on Isreal that will begin a 7 year peace.
WWIV will be the whole world against Israel as Christ returns.

Today there are also cases of overlap with regards to national sins and judgment, but that is a whole other case.

EDIT:
Today sodomy abounds because the church is corrupt. The Lord has turned this world over to these things to show those in the church of their own death. When the world is wholly turned over to these things as it is now, it's too late to fix by trying to eliminate 'problems', all we are to expect is judgment.

Besides, to be consistent with the OT, if we were to start up the executions anywhere, we would have to start in the pulpits and work our way out from there.






Paul must have left something out.

2 Cor. 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

So Paul should have added(except when God says I need your help so go pick up a rifle and go kill people for they are to much for me to handle).

Romans 12:19-21
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

So Paul didn’t mean this and God again needs our help, so we are to pick up a rifle and kill the enemy right after we feed them and give them something to eat. That way we would be over coming evil with good.

1 Thes. 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Again, Paul should have added (except the men God needs your help to kill).

I wonder what happened to the twelve legions of angels and how did the Lord get so weak after he received all power:
Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I guess he changed his mind and now we are to baptize with a rifle.

lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/10/4 13:20Profile









 Re:

There is a deep history behind the WWI & WWII and it begins with the Balfour Letter and later, the Balfour Agreement.

 2009/10/4 13:26









 Re:

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Not off base at all and thanks to ginnyrose as well.

GOD commanded they kill false prophets also.

He decides now, as with Ananias and Sapphira.

Ginnyrose & DT are right - we pick & choose from the O.T. as it suits us - which in turn, "cancels out" the N.T. Scriptures every time.




Here is a NT scripture for you.

Rev 13:9-10
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If one that kills with the sword must also be killed with a sword, how is that able to be accomplished without killing him with a sword?

 2009/10/4 14:41





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