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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will You Kill or Be Killed?

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 Re:

"They certainly were not looking for it but when they faced it, instead of crying they were heard praising God. Even the testimony of those that were being burned to death, they glorified God. These people seemed to be looking for a city who's builder and maker is God, they seemed to long to be there instead of here. They saw something that we seem to be missing. I think we really haven't "heard" the gospel like they did."

Amen brother, amen. This generation, or the next may well face these very issues. Is the most important thing to preserve our rights? Or is it to glorify God? Some may say both, I would respectfully disagree. Check out the post that I gave a link to, it is very insightful........Frank

 2009/9/30 23:10
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
Is the most important thing to preserve our rights? Or is it to glorify God?




We will certainly not glorify God by accusing others of trampling God's word.

God gave His people no such right.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/10/1 3:19Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

ccchhhrrriiisss,

Please forgive me for failing to realize you would take this personal. Let me assure you ccchhhrrriiisss that if I was going to accuse you I would address you by name.

I find it disconcerting how you take offense by dissecting a sentence and changing the issue into something you say is about you.

There is an old saying that applies to all of us, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”

Now to the issue at hand.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Galatians 6:7-9
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. [8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [9] And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1Tim. 6:1
1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.
NIV

Only the truth of Jesus Christ will give us peace and make us free, everything else leads into bondage.

lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/10/1 5:32Profile









 Re:

"It reminds me I think of how it seems another passage of Scripture could be misrepresented if it is not taken in its entirety and within the context.

I'm thinking of when the Lord Jesus said that if His Kingdom were of this world, His followers would fight.

Is that what He said?
No. Not entirely. He said they would fight, so that He would not be delivered to the Jews.

Some of HIs followers most certainly do fight. That is His Angels for sure." Chris JD



If we're talking context then I think we can agree that the 'context' that is supposed to lend to objectivity can be very subjective. When you say that Jesus was talking about His Kingdom not being of this world or else His people would fight to prevent His arrest I fail to see this in the context you do, especially given the fact that this event was after the sermon on the mount and not long after His rebuke of Peter drawing a sword to prevent Jesus' arrest. As far as the Angels, I'm not sure how that adds any context to us here.. when Jesus spoke He was speaking to us not them. And His lordship over the armies is not the armies of Iran, Russia etc.... He was not a military leader of this world while He was doing His Father's work here.

Jesus did say that He came not to bring peace but a sword. So what did He mean by 'sword' as the Bible does not mention Jesus with a physical sword and record Jesus actually rebuking Peter for weilding one in His defense? Could He be talking about the sword of truth? When He comes back the sword will be the word of truth from His mouth. The sword is described this way in many instances:

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Revelation 1:16
In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

I believe when Jesus comes back it will be this sword that will judge the attitudes of the ungodly penetrating their spirit so deeply that they cannot deny, dismiss, excuse or ignore their rebellion against their Savior. We are to use this same sword for ourselves... now... to judge our attitudes and become perfected. The Word of God is certainly a weapon, albeit 'otherworldly'.






 2009/10/1 9:16









 Re:

As I said before, there is "a time of war, and a time of peace." There was a time for Jesus to "turn the other cheek", and there is a time that this same Jesus will "smite the nations" and "tread the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". He is a "man of war", and there are times when he 'wars', both physically and spiritually.

Each thing has its place, there simply is "a time of war, and a time of peace." To make hard and fast rules, with regards to matters such as these is to put the flesh on display. Matters like these are for Christians to learn to respond to the leading of the Spirit.

 2009/10/1 9:32
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi chapel...

Quote:
Please forgive me for failing to realize you would take this personal. Let me assure you ccchhhrrriiisss that if I was going to accuse you I would address you by name.

I find it disconcerting how you take offense by dissecting a sentence and changing the issue into something you say is about you.

There is an old saying that applies to all of us, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”


Actually, I didn't take it [i]personally[/i]. Rather, I am concerned with an accusation directed toward ALL of those who disagree with your views is unhealthy. It seems that, in your earlier statement, you have dismissed ALL of those who disagree with your views as if they are "[i]trampling upon the Word[/i]," believe that the Word (in regard to those who disagree) is "[i]so easily set aside with excuses[/i]," or think that "[i]the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church meant nothing[/i]" in the hearts of those who disagree with your view. Do you see the difficulty with such bold, blanket accusations directed at those who merely disagree with your view on this issue? Like I was saying, there are many of us (yes, I do count myself amongst them) who have prayed diligently and with honesty and sincere integrity, studied the Scriptures prayerfully, and yet have derived an opinion that is slightly different than your own.
Quote:
There is an old saying that applies to all of us, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”


Yes, but I think that it is best if the Lord Himself is the one choosing the shoes, so to speak (rather than the perspective of one man...or even a group of men). There are true believers who believe that merely have a different view than the various views with the non-resistant segment.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/1 11:58Profile
chapel
Member



Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

ccchhhrrriiisss,

I believe you hit the nail on the head when you write:

Quote:
There are true believers who believe that merely have a different view than the various views with the non-resistant segment.



“The non-resistant segment” as you put it is considered almost as a cult by the majority of the American church. We are accused of being anti-American, anti-cultural, sissies, and cowards; Pacifist, Socialist, and Anarchist.

The bottom line is to cause people to be afraid, be very, very afraid; because the non-resistant segment will lead us all into captivity and horrible suffering.
This is all done by appealing to peoples emotions with hypothetical questions to cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Col. 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Thus as Paul declares above, it spoils the believer through philosophy and vain deceit, not based on the word of God but emotions and traditions of men based on the principles of the world, which cannot or ever will be of Christ.

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


A segment, yes even peculiar:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Titus 2:11-15

May the love and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ lead us into all truth.

lee


_________________
Lee Chapel

 2009/10/1 19:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi chapel...

Quote:
“The non-resistant segment” as you put it is considered almost as a cult by the majority of the American church. We are accused of being anti-American, anti-cultural, sissies, and cowards; Pacifist, Socialist, and Anarchist.

The bottom line is to cause people to be afraid, be very, very afraid; because the non-resistant segment will lead us all into captivity and horrible suffering.
This is all done by appealing to peoples emotions with hypothetical questions to cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man.


I'm not sure what you mean by this, because I have hardly seen anything resembling this in discussions amongst believers. Which "hypothetical" questions are you referring to that are purposed to "cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man?" And, are you just ASSUMING that such questions are meant to change the subject...or to clarify the depth of the "non-resistant" opinion?
Quote:
The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Earlier, I made a distinction between the idea of a "just war" and a "just cause." A just war deals with nationalism, patriotism and ideas of diplomacy vs. military response. The concept of a "just cause" is a view that there are reasons for which men can "interfere" in the issues of this world. For instance, as a married man, the Scriptures tell me that I will concern myself with the "affairs of this world" (I Corinthians 7:32-35). It doesn't make someone less spiritual to take care of his family. In fact, to neglect those needs would make such a man "worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8). It is my view that there are causes that invite (and perhaps, [i]require[/i]) involvement and perhaps to some extent, resistance.

Moreover within this discussion, I still cannot see a valid Scriptural argument that invokes complete and utter non-involvement in certain participation within this world. Why am I saying this? I have read this present debate...and many of the previous debates on this issue...and have prayerfully considered and studied this issue. Yet I still do not embrace some of what is taught by the "non-resistant" segment of believers.

More importantly, I think that it is unwise to dismiss such believers in the manner that as pointed out earlier. This is why I raised issue with comments that seemed to accuse those who disagree with this non-resistant viewpoint as "[i]trampling upon the Word[/i]," or treat the Word in a manner that "[i]so easily set aside with excuses[/i]," or think that "[i]the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church meant nothing[/i]" in the hearts of those who disagree with the "non-resistant" view.
Quote:
Col. 2:8
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Thus as Paul declares above, it spoils the believer through philosophy and vain deceit, not based on the word of God but emotions and traditions of men based on the principles of the world, which cannot or ever will be of Christ.

I'm not sure that I get the same thing out of that verse as you do. It is quite an accusation to claim that sincere believers who disagree with you are "spoiled" or guilty of embracing "philosophy and vain deceit not based on the Word of God but emotions and traditions of men." I can't speak for others, but there are very real reasons based upon SCRIPTURE that cause me to have the persuasion that I do. To dismiss it otherwise is just plain wrong.

Does this make any sense? Many of us have prayed, sought the Lord's heart on this matter, and studied the Scriptures thoroughly, yet don't embrace some of those same exact notions as some of what is taught by "non-resistance" brethren.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/1 20:30Profile









 Re:

HI Chapel,

I believe that you have hit the nail on the head :-) (a lot of nails going around) when you write.....

"The bottom line is to cause people to be afraid, be very, very afraid; because the non-resistant segment will lead us all into captivity and horrible suffering.
This is all done by appealing to peoples emotions with hypothetical questions to cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man."

Time and again you see this. My personal belief is that many Christians are afraid of persecution and standing up against the crowd. It is ironic therefore for people who follow the Biblical mandate as they see it, to be accused of cowardice. In WW11 men who served in the Merchant Navy in Britain were actually spat on in the streets because they were considered "cowards." Ironically they ended up having a greater casualty rate that the Royal Navy, but the point being that public sentiment was such, that there was no room for objectors of any kind. True Christianity will always be found in the minority, the path is narrow and very few there are that find it......Frank

 2009/10/1 20:59
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear chapel,

You said:

Quote:
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Thus as Paul declares above, it spoils the believer through philosophy and vain deceit, not based on the word of God but emotions and traditions of men based on the principles of the world, which cannot or ever will be of Christ.


As one of those who has not fully agreed with you in your doctrine of non-resistance, let me say that you are placing us at the opposite extreme when we have not taken such a position. Just because I disagree with total non-resistance doesn't in any way make me a promoter of war or "eye for eye" justice.

I believe that, if there is any command in Scripture that we must all adhere to at all times and without variation among brothers, its is this:

Mt 22:36-40 Jesus replied: [color=CC3300]“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”[/color]

This is where fulfillment of God's will is. We must pray at all times and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in each situation that may confront us, with the greatest command of God in our hearts.

It is likely that in most instances, we will be called by the Spirit not to resist, and as servants of the Most High, we must obey. But there might be times when the Spirit will call us to resist something for the good of others whom we love - this call I will also obey.

As I told you before, I understand the teaching of the Sermon on the Mount differently than you do, and believe me - it is not for lack of prayer or meditation on my part. I must honor the understanding that the Holy Spirit has given me about these verses, and as I said before, I respect your view of it, if that is what the Spirit has given you.

If you are following Christ's teaching as revealed to you by the Spirit, so am I. There is no need to accuse us of disobedience or being flippant about God's teaching because it is simply not true.

 2009/10/1 21:12Profile





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