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anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 I have written more thoroughly...

So, I have been thinking over the types and what not in the OT. Praying to God that he would open my understanding to more of these foreshadowings and things I may have missed.

I began to think of how a wife was brought to Isaac from his fathers servant while he was meditating in the field. Then I thought of how Jacob had to work like crazy and go through wild trials to get his wife even weeping when he first kissed her. I have been of the interpretation that I have heard that Jacob was rebellious so God had to judge him sometimes and break him. Whereas Isaac was just a good guy and had it easy. I was however confused over this for a while because it just wouldn't settle. I wonder if Jacob really was bad I mean I know many errors of saints are shown in the Scriptures, but sometimes just much good. I then thought you know what maybe Jacob wasn't all that bad. I mean not every Christian gets it easy like Isaac that could have just been an instance and even a picture of Christ' bride being brought to him. The Christian can often though not doing any wrong or like Christ not doing any wrong need to be tried and yet love. So also, I thought with Jacob. Sure he was deceived and had to work like crazy, but that does not necessarily mean he did anything wrong. Also, when Jacob who many call rebellious was lied to did he revile in return? No, he blessed and served. This is Christ likeness and a great deal so. I then went on to think more so into the latter texts wherein he deals with Esau and what not and will try to further prove my case. Since I have not given a ton of reason though some yet mostly statements without many proofs.

Though this is not exhaustive or strongly thought through I will just jot down some of the things I have mused on.

Jacob grabbed Esaus ankle on the way out and so got his name. Some say you see he is trying to cheat. I will more say he is competing and there is nothing wrong with that. Some will even say he is trying to usurp. I will say usurping in and of itself is not wrong. David by the call of God usurped kingdoms for power by the sword.

Jacob offered Esau food for his birthright. Was this wrong? No I don't think so. I think that Esau just cared more for fleshly things then godly things. For what does it say in Hebrews of him?

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

You will see from this that Esau was just a sinful man. Jacob merely exposed Esau's sinfulness and showed that Esau was no fit person for the birthright. It was not as if Jacob stole the birth right it was Esau's choice. The sin here is not Jacob's, but it is shown to be Esau's here in this text.

Or what of the fact that Jacob deceived his father and out maneuvered Esau for the blessing? Was this sin? Was this deception? Well, first of Jacob didn't want to do it at first and was talked into it by his mother and she said she would take the fault. It is a righteous man who does not want to do wrong even in great opportunity. Yet, think of this did Jacob really steal anything? No. Remember Esau had already sold it so it was rightfully Jacob's. Then think of this of the harlot Rahab. She lied to hide the spies and it was accounted to her as faith and righteousness. So, also, Jacob under honest circumstances out witted his enemies.

God does not always respect the natural first born but the one who is worthy in the heart. Not the one who is great but the one who is weak. Not the one who is fleshly but the one who is spiritual. This is a perfect picture of that.

I have already mentioned Isaac's dealing with his wife in light of Jacob. Now how about Esau in light of Jacob. Esau took non Israelite brides which vexed his mother and more then one. Isaac however waited and so much so that he wept when he found one of his kin. Sure he had 2 brides but it wasn't even his choice, but he did the even greater good in keeping the one he did not want. Some would think that in "polygamy" that the best thing to do is to divorce all wives except for the first when becoming a Christian. I would say though that that is not always the best thing for those women especially in that culture context. So Jacob in not wanting her nor wanting 2 wives kept her anyways and cared for her.

Some say Jacob was deceived because he was a deceiver by Laban the father of his 2 wives. This I think not to be true. Jacob was deceived by Laban one because Laban was evil. Note also that though Jacob got a bride he did not want and had to work an extra 7 years it turned into a Romans 8:28;

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Though evil occurred to Jacob it turned out for good. First, many children were born to him though not many from the other. Second, in Leah's debasement God worked and gave her praise namely Judah who ended up being in the lineage of Christ. So, you will see that this even evil turned out for good to Jacob.

Not only that, but when reviled by Laban Jacob did not curse back but blessed. He worked hard and multiplied Laban's well being and God was with him. Then in the end Jacob even had his own wealth. And even when Laban wanted to attack Jacob he couldn't for God protected him.

Or think even before all this. When Jacob fleeing from persecution like a martyr. Slept and had a dream of a ladder to heaven ect. What was this? This was the Gospel this was Christ as Jesus later stated. So Jacob was blessed all this time. God was showing him all this because he was seeking to be right before God. Jacob even vowed at that point to worship God and so we have Bethel.

Or some will say you will see later Jacob wrestling with God/Angel. Therefore he was disobedient to God. I will say this in light of all the previous body of evidence that this was not totally the case. Sure maybe Jacob needed to be taught obedience by the things he suffered, but so did Jesus and it was not sin. I do not quite know how to interpret that whole part yet. I will say though that Esau did not try to kill him. It says in the Proverbs that a righteous man makes even his enemies to be his friends. Or maybe Jacob was not sure if he would be killed or not and God had to teach him trust. As Jacob vowed if you will bring me back safe to my fathers house then you will be my God. In making Esau not attack him God I believe was fulfilling Jacob prayer. So I am not sure this was a conscience act of disobedience, but just an innocent lesson of growth.

Furthermore, as people say he was wrestling with God and so disobedient. It may have been a trial of faith for God had told him he would be back in his land and even angels met him before seeing Esau and who knows what they said maybe the same. Jacob was afraid, but what was this wrestling for? Was it to get away in fear? No, it was to get a blessing to get past Esau somehow. You see Jacob was not saying let me out of here he was wrestling and pleading with God to bless him like Jesus in Gethsemane. For after what was it told of him? You shall no longer be called Jacob or one who struggles to get ahead but Israel one who rules as a prince and has power with God and men! Now that is a blessing not a cursing what he was doing in wrestling was not wrong. Maybe it was right for him to fear until he prayed it through. A mighty man of prayer was this Jacob.

The list goes on.

So, I think you will see, that Jacob was not a man who was rebellious, to judgment, to brokenness. But, a man who was zealous for righteousness, a man who loved his enemies, who was wise and did great exploits in God. Again, I know that faults are often seen in saint in the Scripture but not always. Think of Joseph or Daniel. These men were "excellent" this was a testimony of how great God can make men to be. There life was marked with mostly abundant good. Some will even say that Joseph was sinning and so made his brother mad. This is emphatically not the case. Joseph is a picture of Christ. He was anointed and favored by the father because of his righteousness and his brother lack thereof. He was cast into a pit depicting death. Later he was on top of the world in Egypt and saved Israel and restored his brothers. All this Christ will do. Joseph was not proud he was anointed and favored and evil men hate that and therefore persecute. Let us not cast slander and accusation on these Patriarchs of God who bore much fruit as a testimony and lest the pictures which God has given us of the Gospel be skewed.

So I think that in part the life of Jacob was a picture of Christ and us who will serve God and be persecuted and tried and yet come through doing great good not having it always easy, but God works all things out for good.

 2009/9/5 23:52Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
I am still yet to see any incidents wherein he did evil or was judged.



It is a sin to deceive. God rebuked Abraham for deceiving or telling a half truth. Jacob deceived his father and told none of the truth. He said that he was Esau, an outright lie. The judgment later came in the form of "the deceiver was deceived". God often uses this type of retribution in a person's life. "Your own sins will return upon your head." So Jacob was deceived by Laban and got Leah. Jacob could have waited to receive the birthright God promised him, but instead he extorted it from his brother. Therefore, Laban later extorted Jacob's labors as a shepherd, which Jacob clearly complains of. Beyond this, I am not sure if there is much else. I never saw that wrestling with God was any form of being judged. Rather, both a lesson and a blessing came from it.

 2009/9/6 7:11Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

As I earlier mentioned. Rahab the ex harlot lied and deceived in order to hide the spies. It was accounted to her as faith and she was spared. So this was actually counted as "good"

In the same way it was not as if Jacob had stole something. Esau sold his birthright because he was a sinner as you will see in Hebrews. So Jacob deceived, but it was for righteousness like Rahab since the birthright was rightfully his.

Or even think of Corrie Ten Boom who lied to hide the Jews.

Or think of military maneuvers in the OT wherein one would by tactics and maybe not words deceive the other in battle for God.

 2009/9/6 19:45Profile
sonofthunder
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Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

Not to be in any way capricious, divisive, factious or in any way VARIANT ... nor to be dis-respecting - to the original poster! But does Jacob's life need "interpretation" What i mean is: His life is chronicled in black and white - and in ink and paper. (as a record to us) for all to read, have, and to know ( its a record of what happened - and of what is bible history, and of the truth in documented form )


I personally dont think interpretors are needed!!

Some may mis-apply the meaning here and there, or have a differing view or slant on this and that as the events unfolded ... but at the end of the day (when push comes to shove) ...its fairly plain language both to read, absorb, process and take in ( even skeptics and cynics can read it and to a certain accurate degree deduct certain facts, truths, and process information taken from the book) (Genesis)

Contrarywise though: I would say the book of Hebrews and parts of Romans need more interpretation and are much harder going (with peter saying in his 2nd epistle that many things pAUL WROTE AS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD) as understanding OF SCRIPTURE doesnt always come by the intellect!!! but by revelation, AND by the holy ghost, by the comforter who will guide us into all truth. And by the unction and by the anointing that abides in you ... and ye have (no need) therefore that any man teach you, but the same holy ghost that dwells IN you ...ShALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS...

To say it another way: Its like reading the book of chronicles or the book of kings or the book of Acts... these books dont seek (to teach us ) insomuch as they give coverage to the events as they unfolded ( so we have a witness and we have a record, and an account of things -- as they occurred and unfolded ) its called the documentaion of chuch history ... i believe !!!

Question: Can God can judge the world in righteousness: If he doesnt have a record? - and he doesnt keep good books?? - and the necessary events are all tabled and chronicled as a witness and record - of what happened. Therefore the world is without excuse. If he (God) has a record and we have that same record too!?

Case in point Brethren: The book of acts doesnt seek to teach us doctrine -- insomuch as it seeks to chronicle the events and acts of the apostles as they occured and were unfolded!

Case in point again: And harking back briefly now to my article on the (10) most debated topics! people have wondered in (debate form) why did david pick up 5 stones instead of 4 stones or 6 stones or why not 10 stones to slay Goliath????

Was it because Goliath had 4 other brothers or does it have some mystical spiritual meaning or was it meant to be a type or shadow to us ???

Well i could respond by to those questions by saying: who cares?? whether those were the reasons (or) not? but for the sake of not coming across beligerant or disrespectful to anyone who has thought or wondered that. I will say ( In my view) the main reason given is: Is simply because God has to have (a record) ( a witness ) of the events? Hence he told prophets at times to write an large scrolls and in ezekiel chapter nine the man came to record with ink and paper also before the slaughter took place in Israel! its recorded so bible history is 100% accurate and no one can fault his ( God's ) RECORD !!! of said events. Or else hOW CAN God judge the world? and theose gentiles of the old testament -- if he (God) doesnt keep records and books ?? For instance and example: It is no different to a court of law ... without witnesses how can you judge or pass sentence on someone? They could not crucify Jesus at the first - for this selfsame reason ... because the witnesses (that witnessed ) against him -- there testimony or account of things did not agree - with one another. However Once they found witnesses in agreement -- they believed they had enough evidence (then to proceeed) and convict him of threatening to demolish the Jewish temple (destroy this temple and in 3 days and i raise it again ) was used against him ( Jesus ) in the quoting him (out-of-context). To then nail the Son-of-God (by putting him to death)

No pun intended.

The Point is: It's not always a case of teaching or of doctrine, or of interpretation!! Insomuch as it is simply a documented piece of history, And a record for all humanity to see, to behold and to have a copy of the TRUTH ...and of what accurately took mplace and occurred ( THY WORD IS TRUTH ) O'Lord Amen and Amen


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2009/9/6 21:43Profile
imnowhere
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Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

There is great profit in searching out right judgement of Jacob.

Many condemn him as an evil, disobedient man concerning the account of Issac and Esau.

But it wasnt even Jacob's idea.
Rebecca instigated it and told Jacbob she'd take the curse herself if Issac so chose.

God had told Rebecca that 2 nations were in her womb and the older would serve the younger. Now Issac, in his disobedience (he had to have known) wanted to give what God intended for Jacob to Esau.

Rebecca had about an hour or two, give or take, to do her part and see that what God had told her was to happen would actually happen.

Also, the blessing had to come from a free will or it wouldn't be a blessing at all. Rebecca, being a godly woman like Sarah, wouldn't usurp Issac's authority and contend with him, but rather, it seems, used the only means possible to bring about God's plans.

Yes many, say, 'they all should've sat on their hands and done nothing proving their great faith in God'. I disagree. Faith without works is dead. Rebecca and Jacob had faith in God's command and it worked out exactly how it was supposed to. The blessing was given to Jacob freely, and Israel did not fall servant to Edom. As Issac said, the blessings cannot be taken back.

For those that indict Jacob and Rebecca as sinful, faithless, wicked etc, that's fine. I try to teach the body to delve a little deeper into God's judgements.

As Von Bonhoeffer said, crazy times call for crazy action. Sometimes we don't have the convinience of normal circumstance.

There are many hard judgements in the bible. We will do well if learn to judge right from scripture, and maybe better amongst ourselves as well.

 2009/9/6 22:00Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Sonofthunder,

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you to an extent.

I would say that though Paul's writing are the only ones actually called "hard" that there are other texts that are. I mean most I would say aren't for readership. However, there are certain parts for certain reasons.

Reasons like cultural context, translation, or some ideological difficulties like this one. Or think of the fact that many prophecies have double fulfillment and such.

There is also the statement that the New is in the Old concealed. And the Old is in the New revealed. So, there are things in the OT that we have to have eyes and ears to hear. There are many types and foreshadowing and such.

Even though some texts are narratives of historical events those events all have teaching in them as examples. You will read in the NT of the things in the OT happening to us to teach us as examples.

I think there can be extremes in these interpretations, but there can also be extremes in not interpreting.

Another word I would use for interpreting would be rightly dividing the word, or explaining. You read read in the OT how that the Elders when reading the Law would explain it to the people.

I am just saying that some have a wrong understanding of it and that there is profit in understanding it right.

The Apostles often used types in the OT to explain things like Ishmael being the law and Isaac promise by faith.

The last thing I think I would say is that I not only like to learn from these things, but I find a wonder and glory in searching out God's word. Finding those things He has done so poetically. Or so mysteriously and majestically. I love when He talks to me and when I can hear His word rightfully for it is precious to me. The word is so deep because the Author is so marvelous. No man could have written this book and things like types and what not are astonishing.

p.s. You may know this and probably do and not in a hard way, but the name sonofthunder is scripturally a very bad one. Jesus harshly rebuked those certain disciples in calling them that.

 2009/9/6 23:32Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Imnowhere,

Amen.

Those are true and good thoughts.

It is profitable.

In remarking that Rebeccah and Isaac were told of their children I forgot to put that part. Isaac was in the flesh. He saw Esau and saw that he was strong in the flesh and so chose him as Samuel would have chose the other brothers then David or Abraham through a handmaiden then an old Sarah.

Also, the thought of sitting on hands but instead doing something is very true.

As for crazy times call for crazy measures I also think that is very true and there is more for me to think on that. I would say though as I was saying that I think Scripturally for my previous reasons that outwitting someone is not wrong if it is for the right purpose. It is one to wrestle with and I think that is the main controversy and the reason for the false interpretation of the life of Jacob, but I think it to be Biblical.

 2009/9/6 23:38Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

I think the main central turning issue on this is whether lying is okay for right purposes.

Well I cited Rahab.

I have thought more over the text. Jacob said he was afraid that he would 'seem' a deceiver and be cursed by his father not God.

Was it okay for Corrie Ten Boom to lie?

Was it okay but not God's best?

Or when the armies of the Lord would deceive the other though not verbally?

Or remember when Jesus was with his brother and they asked him if he were going to the feast and he didn't answer them openly and later went to the feast when they did not know.

What are your thoughts?

 2009/9/6 23:55Profile
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

When I saw this thread, I thought like sonofthunder that it was basically a useless discussion, because Jacob was all of those things (rebellious and judged or obedient and blessed) at different points in his life. He was human and sinful like all of us, but used of God for a divine purpose.

However, the last few posts have taken a sudden dangerous twist that frightens me.

Quote:

anonymity wrote:
I think the main central turning issue on this is whether lying is okay for right purposes.

Well I cited Rahab.

I have thought more over the text. Jacob said he was afraid that he would 'seem' a deceiver and be cursed by his father not God.

Was it okay for Corrie Ten Boom to lie?

Was it okay but not God's best?

Or when the armies of the Lord would deceive the other though not verbally?

Or remember when Jesus was with his brother and they asked him if he were going to the feast and he didn't answer them openly and later went to the feast when they did not know.

What are your thoughts?



You are hinting at the idea that lying or being dishonest or untruthful might be all right for a Christian under certain circumstances. You mentioned Jacob, Rahab, then Corrie Ten Boom, and finally you have the temerity to include the Lord Jesus, implying by the context that he, like them lied at one time.

First, let me say that I find your inclusion of the Lord Jesus Christ in your post about liars very distasteful and irreverent. He did not lie and could never lie. The Lord Jesus was without sin as the Bible says, unless you dare to cast doubt on scripture also.

Secondly, I don't for a second believe that the lies of those Biblical characters and Corrie Ten Boom were encouraged by God in any way. Rahab's faith was commended for welcoming the spies, not for lying about them (Heb 11:31). Nothing is impossible with God, and He could easily have achieved His purpose without those lies. As weak and sinful humans, we can relate to those people and understand how they could have lied in the situations they were in. If I had been in their place, I probably would have caved in like they did. But that does not make it right.

Let us all remind ourselves of these passages from scripture:

Zec 8:16-17 "These are the things you are to do: [b]Speak the truth to each other[/b], and render true and sound judgment in your courts; do not plot evil against your neighbor, [b]and do not love to swear falsely[/b]. I hate all this,” declares the LORD.

Jn 8:44 [color=CC3300][b]You belong to your father, the devil[/b], and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, [b]for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.[/b][/color]

Col 3:9-10 [b]Do not lie to each other[/b], since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Rev 22:13-15 [color=CC3300]"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and [b]everyone who loves and practices falsehood[/b]."[/color]

[b]Lying is a sin.[/b]

In Christ's love,
Leo

 2009/9/7 2:09Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

I wasn't saying that Jesus lied.

As for what you quote it is true that we should not lie. All those verse of course say that. None of them however specifically say that we cannot out wit for righteous purposes.

So you would rather had Rahab not say the spies were not there?

You would rather Ten Boom not say the Jews were not there?

What of David in war? Using deceiving tactics to overcome his enemies? Is this lying then yet without words?

 2009/9/7 3:14Profile





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