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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A couple questions about the gift of an Evangelist? and gifts in general?

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ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7479
Mississippi

 Re:

My point it rooted in Ephesians 4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. Then if you continue on to Ephesians 4:12-14 you will find the purpose of these different ministering gifts. They are to work together for one purpose, a lot like a grain harvester. Ever see one run? If not go to a grain farmer and ask him to run a combine for you, standing idle and take a look at it. When I see one run I stand amazed at all those cogs, wheels, pulleys, belts working together, all timed just perfectly to accomplish one goal: to harvest this crop, be it corn or wheat or some other grain. This combine is a perfect metaphor in how the church, or brotherhood, is to cooperate for the good of all. All different parts, all cooperating: some plow, others plant, some fertilize, some harvest and the process of harvesting is much more complex, difficult. And then the process starts all over again. As in the field so it is with souls of men.

It is rare to see one person possessed with all these ministry gifts. It could happen, but the fact that it is rare points up to the need to have within a brotherhood a plural ministry: men gifted in different areas so the job gets done, well done.

In any case all should be able to teach but the form this teaching carries will differ based on the type of gifting upon a person.

One of the saddest things missing in our larger brotherhood is the gift of evangelist. Lots of teachers and good ones. I have personally benefited from their ministry. An evangelist's presentation is different. It is marked with urgency, passion. A pastor is much more patient in function and how he relates to people.

My understanding...

Blessings,
ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/9/3 17:48Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2005
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
My point it rooted in Ephesians 4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. Then if you continue on to Ephesians 4:12-14 you will find the purpose of these different ministering gifts. They are to work together for one purpose,



... I agree completely. We are given the purpose of these five gifts in Eph. 4:12-14. I notice some things in particular in these verses. First, these gifts are placed for the perfecting or for the completion or furnishing of the saints for the work of the ministry. Everything mentioned in these verses points to "body ministry" i.e. those called of God to focus primarily on preparing the body of Christ for the work of the ministry. (This is not to say these people do not also reach the lost, but it is not the main thrust of ministry that God has given them.) The bulk of the fruit borne by these people is indirect fruit borne by the body that these people have been called to prepare for ministry. The second thing I see is that these are not gifts in the sense that God has given someone the gift of an ability to teach. For example, many people have talents and gifts that are God given in the area of teaching, and can do a very capable and anointed job of teaching the Word of God. They teach, but are not teachers in the sense of Hebrews 4. Some have been called as teachers with a specific purpose to bring the body of Christ into a doctrinal maturity and to prepare the body to do the work of ministry. This is the realization that the apostles came to when they abandoned waiting tables to devote themselves to the Word and to prayer. After this point, their ministry focused primarily on establishing and supporting ministry, which is what the Eph. 4 gift of the apostle does. I see gifts as unique and distinct, not overlapping, because I see a very major difference between, lets say, teaching and the gift to the body of an equipping servant leader known as a teacher.

I think if we really begin to analyze the structure of leadership and ministry function within the body of Christ from the New Testament, we will find that these five gifts comprised an integral part of the leadership structure of the early church. These people serve the body as they prepare the body, have oversight of ministry, appoint elders over local bodies, etc.

I think we miss so much when we lock ourselves into the one man show (pastor being the sole leader in a body). I believe we miss it when we relegate the roles played by apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher in the New Testament to some kind of an initial team meant to kick off the show, and not as the structure set up by God to be working in the body today. How many bodies of believers are unbalanced and unprepared for ministry because these gifts are not in operation in the body of Christ?

I know there are a lot of different views on gifts, but I hope this perspective helps.


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Travis

 2009/9/3 19:02Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Gifts

A very interesting thread.

[b][u]Elharris[/b][/u]: I appreciate your response post, particularly Zephaniah 3: 9 since the confusion of language at the tower of Babel will no longer be needed. The words of the Word of God matter, for sure. [u]How do you understand the use of the series “men/de/kai” in Eph 4: 11[/u]. "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers." Do you think they function as words that distinguish/contrast the items in the list? Like o men/o de distinguish (on the one hand/ on the other hand) but for a list of more than two?

3303 - men (translated as “some” in the KJV) re apostles
1161 - de (translated as “and some” in the KJV) re. prophets, evangelists, pastors
2532 - kai (translated as “and” in the final of the series in the KJV) re teachers.

I also would like your (or others) understanding of what reads like three things in 1 Cor. 12: 4 – 10. The only person I have read regarding this is Bill Gothard. It could add another dimension to this question. I notice something of the trinity in this passage and do not think Paul used it for no reason.

diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
differences of administrations, but the same Lord
diversities of operations, but it is the same God

 2009/9/3 20:31Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7479
Mississippi

 Re: A couple questions about the gift of an Evangelist? and gifts in general?

Quote:
.What is the difference between a word of wisdom and a word of knowledge?



Knowledge = information

Wisdom = is using this knowledge, putting it to work.

Proverbs 1:7 is an excellent starting point. No, it is the only starting point for knowledge.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/9/4 18:55Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Thank you all very much for your input. I cant reply to it all, but do consider it.


 2009/9/5 2:09Profile
elharris
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Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59


 Re:

I read all of your comments and observations, and I was just real impressed with your hearts. There were things that were said, by all of you that I just thought were so insightful.

Quote:
twayneb said: I think if we really begin to analyze the structure of leadership and ministry function within the body of Christ from the New Testament, we will find that these five gifts comprised an integral part of the leadership structure of the early church. These people serve the body as they prepare the body, have oversight of ministry, appoint elders over local bodies, etc.

[b]I think we miss so much when we lock ourselves into the one man show (pastor being the sole leader in a body). I believe we miss it when we relegate the roles played by apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher in the New Testament to some kind of an initial team meant to kick off the show, and not as the structure set up by God to be working in the body today. How many bodies of believers are unbalanced and unprepared for ministry because these gifts are not in operation in the body of Christ? [/b]

I know there are a lot of different views on gifts, but I hope this perspective helps.



It is comforting and a blessing to see, that I am not the only one seeing this. I do not just “think”, but know assuredly from scripture, that what we have today is not the way it was meant to be. It was never meant by God to be this “one man show”. And after I quote some of the other obseration’s by others, I’d like to share what I’ve been seeing in 1 Cor 12 -15 on exactly what it was supposed to be like.

Quote:
ginnyrose said: This combine, is a perfect metaphor in how the church, or brotherhood, is to cooperate for the good of all. [b]All different parts, all cooperating: some plow, others plant, some fertilize, some harvest [/b]and the process of harvesting is much more complex, difficult. And then the process starts all over again. As in the field so it is with souls of men.

It is rare to see one person possessed with all these ministry gifts. It could happen, but the fact that it is rare points up to the need to have within a brotherhood a plural ministry: men gifted in different areas so the job gets done, well done.



I loved what you saw in the combine, and how you related it to the body of Christ. Christ so many times used agricultural metaphors to endeavor to try and explain the truth. I believe God leads us to these same things, trying to reach into our understanding and open up his truth to us.

Quote:
anonymity said: I am still getting the feeling that many of these gifts in some ways are very similar and overlap to some degree. I mean if a Pastor is one who counsels well that would be the same as teaching sort of and if a Pastor is one who preaches the Gospel then he is also an Evangelist.

[b]Many will take the verse in Timothy and say that Timothy was to do the work of an Evangelist so therefore He was not an Evangelist,[/b] but just doing the work of one. I wonder though. One usually is what they work toward and do. Or it does not say sometimes do the work of an Evangelist.



I get that feeling too, and I think that it’s the truth, and that is also why it was rather difficult for Paul to explain. As Peter said that in Paul’s letters, there were some things hard to understand…NOT IMPOSSIBLE…just hard. So if they were hard, or took “work” to understand when you had him present trying to explain it, how much more so to us 2000 years of deception down the line.

I also got a real kick out of what you said about how many would take that verse in Timothy. Because when I was writing the post, and went to use that verse, I THOUGHT THE EXACT SAME THING. I thought, oh yea someone’s going to take this and say blah, blah, blah….exactly what you said. Funny huh.

Quote:
JoanM you said: Elharris: I appreciate your response post, particularly Zephaniah 3: 9 since the confusion of language at the tower of Babel will no longer be needed. [b]The words of the Word of God matter, for sure.[/b]



In my opinion, when Jesus told those in Revelation they had left their first love, I think he meant they had left their love of reading his Word. When I fail to spend time in the Word, my faith waxes cold, and even luke warm. You just have to have a love affair with God’s Word, and thus also with words in general.

I can see this in you, by the way you probably sit there and stare at those words trying to understand how they should be understood, taking no man’s “word” for exactly how they should be translated. I bet this scripture applies to you.

Prov 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: [b]and with all thy getting get understanding.[/b]

You don’t just want to quote a verse, know some scripture, have a down pat answer. You don’t just want to drive the car, you want to pull the engine out, take it apart and understand how the thing runs.


Quote:
JoanM you said: How do you understand the use of the series “men/de/kai” in Eph 4: 11. "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers." Do you think they function as words that distinguish/contrast the items in the list? Like o men/o de distinguish (on the one hand/ on the other hand) but for a list of more than two?

3303 - men (translated as “some” in the KJV) re apostles
1161 - de (translated as “and some” in the KJV) re. prophets, evangelists, pastors
2532 - kai (translated as “and” in the final of the series in the KJV) re teachers.



See what I mean, you see something is “UP”, why are they translating two different words [i]de[/i] and [i]kai[/i], BOTH translated as ‘and’. What’s up with that? There are 14 different Greek words that wind up being translated into the English word ‘but’ at some place in the NT. Bullinger’s Lexicon gives all 14 words, and states regarding the Greek word [i]de[/i]

1. When “BUT” introduces a sentence, it is generally the translation of ‘de’, which is an adversative conjunction, carefully to be distinguished from kai or te (see under “AND” or “BOTH”) ‘de’, generally marks a contrast, and an otherwise concealed antithiesis;

I do not think that the men who translated the KJV were necessarily trying to deceive anyone when they used “and” instead of “but”. But like all translations, there are just some senses in words and writing in some languages that are hard to give the sense in another language. And also translation is dependant very must on that person’s religious understanding at the time.

We have now gone though and are in what I would call the “age of impiety”. A rebellious generation, that has very little reverence for much of anything. This is bad on the one hand, but beneficial and good on the other, in that this same rebellion, can be turned around for God’s use, in that, we hold NO MAN as god, or infallible. We have the tools and resources to look at their ideas and work and question for ourselves. This gives God a lot of freedom to work in us, to question the “authorities” so to speak, and lead us to HIS understanding. HIS understanding, would be back to the original understanding of the words, when they were written.


Joan you also said:

[quoteI also would like your (or others) understanding of what reads like three things in 1 Cor. 12: 4 – 10. The only person I have read regarding this is Bill Gothard. It could add another dimension to this question. I notice something of the trinity in this passage and do not think Paul used it for no reason.

diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
differences of administrations, but the same Lord
diversities of operations, but it is the same God


Did you realize that the same problem in Eph 4:11, you are working out regarding the translation of the Greek word “de” meaning BUT, is also present in 1 Cor 12:4-10

While also at the same time, what you quoted here, where they used two English words in the translation of “diversities” and “differences” is only one Greek word diaireseis. And that the first word “de”, is translated “NOW”, instead of “BUT”.

Let’s look at this scripture, as if we have never seen it, and have never heard some of the words and do not know what these things are.

1 Cor 12: 4

BUT [b]diaireseis of charismaton[/b] there are, but the same pneuma;
And [b]diaireseis diaconion[/b] there are and the same Lord.
And [b]diaireseis energematon[/b] there are
but (de) the same Theos, who operates ALL- IN -ALL.

Going backwards, we may not know what these three things are, the charasmaton, the diaconion, or the energematon. But we know that God works “energemon” ALL IN ALL.
But what dose that mean that God energemon, energizes (works) ALL in ALL.

Does that mean like the common saying people sometimes use as if to say: “Well, I’d say “all in all” we’re finished”. Or does it mean that God energizes all these charasmaton in ALL the people or believers who have his spirit?

It’s good to anallize these words, but too many times we see a contradiction and then get stuck there without continuing to read and see how God will ultimately answer the question with the context…the broad as well as immediate context. Greek is very precise but also depends heavily on context for correct understanding.

There were two reasons why Paul wrote what he did here. One most especially applies to us, but one may not apply to us, but we need to understand it.

Before Paul states any of this he says to “the Corinthians”,:

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning pneumatikos brethren (word “gifts” is not in the text), I would not have you ignorant. You (the Corinthians) know, that you (the Corinthians, not necessarily us) were Gentiles carried away unto these dumb idols, even as you were led.

Did you know that every idol, every god also has a SPIRIT a pneuma that goes with it? With every spirit comes a POWER or a blessing or protection or what not. The more gods you got the more spirits you have the better off you are. At least as far as their thinking was.

So Paul’s main message here at the beginning is to remind them, what kind of belief and religion they once followed. And then he says:

WHEREFORE (because of what you formerly followed and believed) I give you to understand (because as he said I don’t want you to be ignorant concerning pneumatiko, the way spirits work) that no one in the spirit of God, speaking says accursed is Jesus.

People in those religions cursed the gods ALL THE TIME. It was just a cultural thing. Paul then says:

AND no one can say Lord Jesus, except in pneuma holy.

You see there are many “spirits”, but not every spirit is a “holy” spirit. And there are not many “holy spirits”, there is only ONE holy spirit, that is in YOU ALL, and that is energized by the SAME GOD, and under the authority of the SAME Lord.

ONE spirit,
ONE Lord,
ONE faith,
ONE Baptism
ONE hope
ONE calling,
ONE GOD who is above ALL of you, and through ALL of you and IN all of you. You and I ALL got the SAME THING.

THIS is NOT how the pagans believed, and he wants them to know, that what they got now, is not the same. And so now he’s going to explain what those PNUMATIKOS, or things of the spirit, supernatural manifestation of the spirit are.

So do you see why he had to tell them that, due to their background. There are some gentiles on the earth today, say Hindus that would need to know this since they still worship many gods, many spirits, and have many Lords. We need to know this, but in our culture it does not apply quite the same, and we wind up getting lost in understaning here. But what he says now, we have what THEY ALL had, and we need to understand what it was.

So now with that understanding straightened out, we can continue to read and understand why he was so adament about it being the SAME spirit, Lord, and finally the same God that worked these things IN ALL. And you need to understand another thing here. The “gods’ did not work ALL their gifts in ALL believers. They took certain men and gifted them and destroyed or ignored others. The gods, which were really “devils” set up hierarchies, and exaulted one man above another, and got men to enslaved, manipulate and make gain of others. This was not the way God worked as being no respecterr of persons.
So now with that understanding read 1 Cor 12:4

1 Cor 12: 4

BUT [b]diaireseis of charismaton[/b] there are, but the same pneuma;
And [b]diaireseis diaconion[/b] there are and the same Lord.
And [b]diaireseis energematon[/b] there are
but (de) the same Theos, who energema/operates ALL- IN -ALL.

God works all these things in ALL people, in ALL situations, at ALL times. There is NEVER a case when it is not God energizing all these things in all the body, when ever they are being done.

And then in 1 Cor 12:4 beginning with the word BUT, ‘de’, which is an adversative conjunction, carefully to be distinguished from kai or te (see under “AND” or “BOTH”) ‘de’, generally marks a contrast, and an otherwise concealed antithiesis to what he has just said, about God working ALL in ALL.

That in contrast to it being GOD who works all the charasmaton, daconion, and energematon in ALL of you, in contrast to ALL of you the manifestation of the pneumato (spirit) is given TO EVERY MAN to profit withal.

The fact is that in contrast to the fact that God is working all these other “manifestations” of the spirit in all the body, the fact is that even though we see these things at work in the body, the truth is they are given to EVERY MAN.

One spirit, one faith, one hope, ONE CALLING,!

In other words, NOT A ONE MAN SHOW. Not even a “leadership” team show. In fact throw OUT the stupid STAGE, get down off your pulpit, put every other believer on a pedistool kneel down wash their feet, and then you might LEARN something!

WHAT did Jesus do and tell his “great” apostles to do? Wash one another’s feet, take the lowest position. DO as he had done to them. NO ONE in that day and time, wanted to be a “minister”, which is the Greek word diaconion, because that was a servant, a dolos, a bond slave. For the most part not exactly a “paid”, honorable PROFESSION.

THE MANIFESTATION IS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN TO PROFIT WITHALL!

It is not of he that wills, or of he that runs, but of GOD who calls men, and gives EVERY man the exact same thing. Your TALENT, your background, your family ties, your education MEAN NOTHING!

God can take the most untalented NOBODY, and if that NOBODY knows the truth about the spirit God has given him, and how to manifest it, he can BLOW you out of the water, with the gracious words which God will speak through that holy man, and back up those words with WORKS of power.

And God can DELIVER people though that NOBODY, which is the whole purpose. Jesus was a NOBODY, so were all is disciples. Christ in you, is you understanding and knowing the truth of what God gave you in that one gift of the holy spirit, and learning how to manifest it. Because that was the same POWER (energemata) that was in Christ, who went about casting out devils, curing fig trees, feeding thousands with a few loaves and fishes, healing the sick, treading on serpents and scorpions, defeating the enemy on every hand.

Do you know why you rarely if ever hear any sermons on these 3 chapters in Corinthians all together? Because if they preached on them, then they would have to do them, and they would have to explain why they were not doing them. You have a WHOLE SYSTEM built around a PROFESSION of professional preachers, teachers and theologians. And there is a whole “economy” there to deal with also. My goodness, some of them, if they knew and taught the truth would have to go out and get a real job.

But I am getting carried away and off subject, because what we all really need to know, is WHAT DO WE HAVE, and HOW CAN WE APPROPRIATE AND USE IT.

This is the whole purpose of why Paul wrote what he did in 1 Cor 12 - 15.

BUT in contrast to God working all pneumatikos, which are the charismaton, the draconian, and the energematon, God has given the manifestation of the pneuma, that pneumatikos to EVERY MAN for profit.

Now in 1 Cor 12:8-11, Paul will tell you what YOU have been given that is of profit to YOU, and to others, when YOU manifest it. I have taken the liberty here to clarify some of the differences in the Greek words and meanings of the prepositions.

1 Cor 12:8 For to one (manifestation) is given THOUGH (dia) the spirit the word of wisdom.

God can give you wisdom, when and where you need it, to be profitable for you, and or someone else you need to help.

1 Cor 12:8 BUT (de) an other (manifestation) (allos, other not the same, one besides what has been mentioned, denoting [b]numerical distinction[/b]. ) the word of knowledge, down (kata) from the same spirit.

Word of wisdom and word of knowledge are similar but not the same.

What good does it do to know something if you don’t know what to do with it or about it? This is supernaturally given wisdom and knowledge. Something that the pagans were always hot on the trail of, trying to attain from their gods, and jumping through hoops to try and get it. God gives FREELY, when you need, desire and ask for it.


1 Cor 12:9 BUT (de) an other (manifestation given to every man is) (heteros, denotes [b]generic distinction,[/b] the other a different kind, out of one of two. A stronger expression than allos. This distinction is generally observed and is important.) [b]faith IN the same spirit.[/b]

Not faith by the same spirit, but faith IN the same spirit. The word ‘heteros” is used here instead of “allos”, because it denotes another of a different kind. This faith is not the same kind of “faith” that you had when you initially believe God. It is not “believing”. It is a different kind of faith and heteros is used because God wants you to know, that in that one spirit he gave you, is a manifestation of supernatural faith, which can be operated, or energemata by Him in you. It is generically different from simple human faith, which of course we also need.



And another (manifestation given to every man to profit withal), gifts of healing, IN the same spirit.

10 and another (manifestation given to every man to profit withal) energemata of works of power.

But an other (allos, manifestation given to every man to profit withal) prophecy.

But an other (allos, manifestation given to every man to profit withal) discerning of pneumaton spirits

But other different (heteros manifestation given to every man to profit withal) kinds of tongues.

Why is this one not “allos” other, but “heteros” other, as was “faith”? Because just like there is regular human faith, which comes by hearing and believing the Word of God, and there is then also in that one spirit you received the manifestation of supernatural faith. So also in regards to language. You have a human tongue or language you learned and you speak, but this other language is a supernatural language you can speak, simply because you have the power souse latent within you.

ONE spirit but as you will see NINE MANIFESTATIONS OF THAT ONE SPIRIT latent within you.

But other (allos, manifestation given to every man to profit withal) interpretation of tongues.

BUT ALL THESE THINGS ENERGE WORK IN THE ONE AND THE SELF SAME SPIRIT.

That again is given to EVERY MANY to profit withal. And of which it is God who works or energizes all these things in ALL the believers, by means of one spirit which we all have an equal portion of.

But now here comes the KICKER verse. That is the verse they use to KICK the truth out, of everything Paul has been trying to explain. The truth that we’re all equal, that there isn’t anyone better or more gifted than any one else. That truth that the guy you look down on that seems like a moron to you, that don’t have much going for him,as far as you're concerned, well God's given him the exact same set of abilities in the one holy spirit.

1 Cor 12:11 But all these things work in the one and the self same spirit, [b]dividing to every man severally as he will.[/b]

And how do they explain that? Oh they say; “God chooses to give a little here to that person, or maybe a little there to this person. They miscall these things “gifts”, when they are MANIFESTATIONS individually of that ONE gift, and then say one person has the “gift”, while another one may not have the “gift”. And they say “God may choose to give it to you, or he may not, it just depends on as HE, GOD WILLS.

Well, bear with me here, and lets just give another interpretation to the words “AS HE WILLS”.

Let’s just say for argument sake that the “he” here is not referring to God, but referring to “HE” the man that has been given the spirit. That instead of God just picking and choosing at random for whatever reason to manifest a gift in this century and that century in one special individual….THAT every single child of God, has the same spirit and the same abilities, same powers latent within him, but they cannot be brought forth, operated and or used unless HE, THE MAN himself WILLS IT.

Now read that verse again, and dare to imagine that is what it is actually saying.

1 Cor 12:11 But all these things work in the one and the self same spirit, [b]dividing to every man severally as he (the man) will.[/b]

One thing I know about God, is that God is not pushy. God in being the perfect example of graciousness, does not force himself on anyone. God, regardless of all these people I’ve heard over the years, that say God “controls” them, God does not control people and God is not a control freak.

In order to a man to do these thing, to operate these works of power, the man has to will to do it.

Now you might say, “Well who wouldn’t will to do these things?” I’ll tell you who would not will to walk in these powers. People who have been taught they are just special gifts that God may give to one and not another. People who have been also taught (as many are), that these things went out with the apostles. You cannot will for something you do not know is available.

You see the reason I KNOW, that the “he” in this verse is talking about you and I, is because, Paul tells them to do this very thing, to WILL for these things, and to zealously will for them. But you see nobody ever get’s that far in the reading. They get lost and quit, sometime after verse 12 and never make it on to THE POINT, which is in 1 Cor 14:1

If we could just by pass what is between there for a bit and not get all wrapped up in how the body works, and yes, you should do these things in love and on, and on. Which things are good, but Paul goes out into left field before he ever gets back on base, of explaining the working of these pneumatic, in the believers.

I’m not saying we kick it out,but let’s jump ahead to where he continues his line of thinking, of what he’s said from 1 Cor 12:1-11 and picks up again in 1 Cor 14:1

1 Cor 12:11 But all these things work in the one and the self same spirit, [b]dividing to every man severally as he (the man) will.[/b]

1 Cor 14:1 …..But (de) desire spiritual (pneumatikos, and the word “gifts is not in the text), but rather than you may prophecy.

If you DESIRE something what do you do?

You WILL it.

But all these things work in the one and the self same spirit, [b]dividing to every man severally as he (the man) will.[/b] follow after love, But (de) desire spiritual (pneumatikos,) but rather than you may prophecy.

You and I are supposed to know that these manifestations lie within the one spirit God gave us. And we are to desire to operate them.

THIS: But (de) desire spiritual (pneumatikos,) but rather than you may prophecy: IS NOT A SUGGESTION FOLKS!

No man can say that Jesus is Lord but BY holy spirit, that same holy spirit that produces all these effects though the energizing by God within each one of us. If you ain’t got some of this going in your life, you have not made the original Jesus Christ your Lord yet. YES I KNOW YOU LOVE THE LORD. And this does NOT make you in anyway INFERRIOR, or less in any way. But you have been given something that you do not realize, and you need to learn how to use it. You may be able to “say” Jesus is Lord, and he is your Lord, and you love him, But God desires for you to manifest forth the power of Christ, and PROVE it not only to yourself, but to the world. These are the things that will PROVE it, in the material realm.

Then when these things are in operation in your life, you speaking and preaching is not in word only, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power, as was Pauls.

What did Jesus say? “These signs shall follow them that believe. In my name they shall cast out devils (manifestations of discerning of spirits, and supernatural faith).

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

These are believers who willed to operate the manifestations listed in 1 Cor 12. Why to they do these things? Because they know they’ve been given the ability to do them, just like Jesus gave power to the 12 and sent them out, and then gave it to the 70 and sent them out.

But how shall they believe without a preacher? And how many preachers today, even believe or do any of these things themselves or teach it? I’m just saying the GREATER WORKS that we are supposed to be doing, are all listed and tied up in the manifestations and how they are to be brought forth and used properly. But first you got to a least considder that you might have them, and that you are supposed to desire to walk in them.



Paul says, that out of all the manifestations we should desire to prophecy first. Let’s find out why. Remember here as you read this, he’s talking to a “Church” group, that was already operating these manifestations within their meetings.

1 Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

WHY?

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (one of the manifestations) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Well he is not saying not to speak in tongues, or that tounges are not important. Rather he’s giving us a clue here to what the manifestation of the spirit, which is given to every man to profit withal is profitable FOR: When a man/woman speaks in tongues, they are speaking unto God, they are speaking in the spirit mysteries. That does not sound like a bad thing to me.

1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

So which do you think is more important? Speaking unto men? Or speaking unto God? Wouldn’t you say that you just might have to speak with God a little before you knew what you should be speaking unto men?

Paul is not saying that speaking in tongues is less than prophecy only that they each have their own profit or benefit. “For the manifestation of the spirit, is given to every man to profit withal.”


1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

So he that operated the manifestation of speaking in tongues, not only speaks to God mysteries, but edifies, builds himself up.

But he that prophecies edifies, that is builds the assembly of God’s people up. Sound to me like this is that saints doing the work of the ministry things, as spoken of in Eph 4, where they edify the body of Christ. The manifestation of prophecy bringing forth words that will edify, exhort and comfort.

Now it seems to me that you got to be built up yourself, before you can really build anybody else up. So the manifestation of speaking in tongues, the first thing they did on the say of Pentecost after they received the holy spirit, must build you up personally, so that you can then also operate the manifestation of prophecy and build others up. See how that would overlap.

1 Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

See both are equally important, but just have different benefits. Pauls concern here is how they use these manifestations within the meeting of the beleivers.

Now he’s gong to try and explain to them, why they just shouldn’t be jumping around all just speaking in tongues at the same time during church service.

1 Cor 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Cor 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Is speaking in tongues speaking into the air? No it’s speaking to God, but if you speak in tongues out loud to someone, and they don’t understand what you are saying, it does not edify, exhort or comfort.

1 Cor 14: 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

1 Cor 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Do you get anything out of watching the Spanish channel, when you don’t know Spanish?

1 Cor 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are [b]zealous of spiritual ‘pneumaticon‘(gifts not in text)[/b], seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Cor 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Well, look what we have here. We have Paul telling someone to WILL TO INTERPRET. How do you know you “will” or desire to operated the manifestation of interpretation? When you ASK God for it. As in: Whatsoever you desire, when you pray, believe you receive it, and you shall have it.”

Now you already have the ability to speak in tongues, and now you must pray and ask God to teach you how to interpret tongues. You have to will it.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Here is another one of those profitable things that the manifestation of the spirit does. When you manifest speaking in tongues, your spirit prays. But when you grow in your operation of these manifestations, then you can interpret what you are speaking in a tongue. Now Paul give you the profit or benefit of that.

1 Cor 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Does God want you to be built up in the spirit? Yes, Does God want you to be built up in your understanding? Yes. These are some of the “profits” or “benefits” of the manifestations, that are lying latent within you at this very moment.

One of the reasons for interpretation of tongues is also:

1 Cor 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Speaking in tongues is blessing with the spirit and giving thanks. But interpretaton is also blessing with the spirit and giving thanks. The difference being that interpretation is given in the understandable language of the people present. What ever it is that God will have you bring forth, obviously it’s great, because people will say AMEN at it.

1 Cor 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

The manifestation of speaking in tonges which is given to every man to profit withal, is profitable because you give thanks WELL, when you speak in tongues. But the other is not edified in that he does not understand what you said. So then that is why you need to pray, ask, will to interpret, so as to fulfill your “ministry” and build up the body.

1 Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I don’t think that needs a lot of explaining right? I don’t think he’s telling us speaking in tongues is not important or is less important or is done away with or of the devil, as many teach.

1 Cor 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

I’m sorry but it seems to be the opposite way in Christiandumb in this day and time.

1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Isa 28:11,12

To “hear” was a Hebrew idiom, meaning to “understand and OBEY”. God said that though they would even manifest some of his power, they still would refuse to understand and obey him. He is talking about “The Church”. I know lots of believers that speak in tongues and are still as reprobate as they come. In understanding they are children, and in malice they are wicked, evil, angry and often dangerous men.

As Jesus told the woman at the well, God is looking for those who will worship him in spirit AND in truth. You can worship in spirit and not in truth. You can speak in tongues, cast out devils, so wonderful works and still be walking in a lie. And that is why Paul put the rest of chapter 12 and 13 inbetween his listing of the manifestations of the spirit and how they were to be operated here in 14. Truth is that if you are not walking in love and following the truth and commandments of Jesus Christ, all this spiritual power and manifestation operation will “profit” you nothing.

But also all the truth in the world will keep you ineffectual without the spirit and power of God to back up the words, and that is where the manifestations of the spirit come in. In SPIRIT and IN TRUTH.

1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

He is not talking about just your regular unbeliever here. He is talking about believers that do not as yet believe they can do any more than speak in tongues. Speaking in tongues is the easiest of the manifestations to operate. Speaking in tongues is a sign to them personally.

1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

This is the other kind of unbeliever, the real unbeliever. He hears a bunch of people jumping up and all speaking in tongues, he thinks they are nuts. And they are, because they are not supposed to be doing that, which is just what Paul is teaching here.

1 Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

1 Cor 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Prophecy is a message from God, thorugh the believer. God knowns that unbelievr or unlearned person that came to your meeting. God knows the secrets of his heart. So when you opperate the manifestation of prophecy God hit’s the nail on the head with that man. This is doing the work of the ministry and building up the body of Christ, by ADDING to it, through the operation of prophecy.

But the Corinthian Church was not exactly holding their meetings as they should have been.

1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

There was no order, and they were all doing all these things all at once. You see they KNEW THEY HAD THESE MANIFESTATIONS. And they were zealous to operate them. But they were not doing it decently and in order. So now Paul is going to give them specific instructions on how to get this organized, so that it works it’s purpose to build up the body of Christ.

1 Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Cor 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

In the assembly you have people who are at different stages of growth. Some just speak in tongues, others speak in tongues and interpret, which others speak in tongues, interpret and can prophecy.

Paul is making sure that even the youngest babe in these manifestations get’s the opportunity to participate and give.

So if they speak in tongues, they are called on 2 or 3 at a time, and at least one of those people must be able to not only speak in tongues, but speak in tongues and interpret also.

1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

After they let the babes and less mature in the manifestations practice. Then the more mature were called upon to prophecy. The did it by 2’s and 3’s and one with in that group would judge or “discern” the messages if they were from God or not. That would be if they were accurate to the truth of the Word.

So not only were they practicing prophecy, but they were practicing discerning of spirits, since spirits speak through people.

1 Cor 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

It wasn’t a ONE MAN SHOW! You had to have some manners and not HOG the floor. And I LOVE this next verse!

1 Cor 14:31 [b]For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.[/b]

Let’s read that again!

1 Cor 14:31 [b]For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.[/b]

How do people learn? By being able to participate, and practice using what they’ve been given.

Do you see now how bad they have messed us over? People come out of Church for the most part as ignorant as they go in. The whole system of what they call apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, is no in accordance with how things really were in the first century. People are not taught the truth, and they do not walk in the power of the holy spirit.

And I like this next verse too.

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

God don’t control people, people control themselves and the spirit God gave them. They make a mockery out of God, when they act the way they do, and misuse the manifestations.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34

Let your (the individual wives of the prophets in the particular Church) women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak (freely just jump up and say what ever they want to say); but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.


This did not mean that women did not speak in togues and interpret, or prophecy in the meetings. But that specifically the wives of the more mature Christians, considered prophets, because they were advanced in their ability to prophecy, that their wives were not allowed to speak freely, so as to try and control the meeting. All a wife had to do to circumvent the whole affair, was publically ask her husband a “question”. “Honey, what do you think about this of what does this mean.” They were to be under obedience to their husbands, and to whoever had the oversight of the Church. That would be the person who called on 2 or 3 to prophecy et.

1 Cor 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak (up freely unrestrained) in the church.

1 Cor 14:36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

1 Cor 14:37 [b]If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.[/b]

1 Cor 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1 Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1 Cor 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


These are the COMMANDMENTS of the Lord. These things are not OPTIONS! No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by holy pneuma, and through the operation of the pneumaticon.

Because when you learn to walk in what you have already been given, then you not only say he is Lord with the mouth, YOU ENFORCE IT! Even Jesus said he was Lord, but it was what he DID that proved it.

The gift of the holy spirit within a believer is the power source for all of the manifestations of that same spirit. The power is latent within the believer.

I received the holy spirit when I was about 11, simply from watching and beleiving a movie about Jesus that I saw, called The Greatest Story Every Told.

Before this I'd gone to church for years, even been baptised in water, but never really understood and never believed in Jesus, like I did when I saw that movie.

But no one ever taught me what I had.

Then years later, before I ever spoke in tongues, before I'd ever even heard of speaking in tongues. As I would be working around the house or doing something by myself, for some reason I would just get this thought, "Gee I wonder what it would be like to speak in a foreign language". And so I'd open my mouth, and move my lips, throat and tongue, and I would literally speak in tonges. Though I did not realize till much learning later, that was what I was doing.

Over the years I have led many people into the knowledge of how to manifest forth that particular manifestation. Most of these people were very frightened of it at first until they learned from the Word and from demonstration, who natural it really is, though it is a supernatural ability.

The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. God does not make any one speak in tongues. And it is very much the same as your own language in that you choose when and when not to speak.

I don't have to be all emotional every time I talk to someone and neither do you when you speak in tongues. You have it within you, you just breath in and begin to move your lips, throat and tongue, but not thinking the words, and they come forth.

Sometimes I have gone for rather long periods with out speaking in tongues, because I simply for got to, and got involved in other things.

You choose by freedom of will to do it. And it is the foundation upon witch all the other manifestations are built. They do work together and overlap one another, working in unison.

I urge you, that if you have not manifested forth this power of the holy spirit, that you give it some considderation. It is primarily for your private prayer life, and to build you up in the spirit.

I will tell you a short story and then I must go.

In my profession in the mental health field I have been working with a littel boy now for over 2 years.

He is now 11, and he was a very troubled child, with many problems, and many fears. His behavior was completely out of control and he was (miss) diaognosed with turrets syndrome.

But he wanted to be a Christian, and God has worked mightily in that little boy.

I have never shared about speaking in tongus with him. But a few weeks ago, I was taking him and his younger sister out to a farm to see some animals.

On the way, he asked me if I could sing the Star Spangled Banner. So I sang it, and he thought that was great.

This reminded me of the song My Country Tis of Thee, so I sang the song for them.

Then I told them the history of the song, and how it's sung to the tune of God save the Queen, and how that song was the national anthem of Britton.

Then that led to me telling them about how each foriegn country had it's own national anthem.

Then they asked me what "foreign" meant, and I said, it was another country, and usually with different or "foreign" language, like Chinese or Spanish.

Then they asked me if I could sing the national anthem of China in Chinese.

Now mind you this is a 6 year old and an 11 year old, asking me these questions.

Well, right then I got an idea, and I said, no I don't speak in Chinese but I can pretend to speak in Chinese, I can pretend to sing the national anthem.

So I started singing in tongues to the tune of God save the Queen.

Well they just got a kick out of that, and asked me how I knew "Spanish". I guess because my tongue sounded more like Spanish to them.

I said I was just pretending. Then my young friend the boy I have been working with for two years, who is a Christian and believes in God, and in what he calls "The Powers", he says to me, "Can I do that"?

I said, yes, just move your lips your mouth, your throat and tongue, like you do when you just talk regular, and just pretend you can speak in another language.

He started to do it, and out came what I knew for sure to be speaking in tongues.

Well he got a real kick out of thinking he was speaking in a foreign language. And so I said: Let's pretend we are foreigners, and having a conversation.

So we sat there and had a pretend conversation, but we were speaking in tongues.

I did not let him know, what he was doing, due to the circumstances in his life at this time, in being under the states authority. I made it a game.

But his sister tried and could not utter one word. And the language that came out of his mouth was I know a true language.

YOu see you all have the one gift, and with that one gift, latent within it are 9 evidences. It is much like having a car, and the spirit is the battery. You may not know anything about a car, but if you get in it and accidently turn the ignition, the car will start. As will the wipers wipe if you then press the right button.

The power of God is actually that simple.

I don't know if any of you speak in tongues or not. But another hint here if you choose to try and turn the ignition, do not listen to what you are saying. Do not let your human brain talk you out of doing it.

Speak it forth, speak a few words, and then just keep practicing and speakng in faith towards God, that what he says in his Word is true.

In the past several weeks, since my young friend has spoken in tongues, I have seen amazing things happening with him, in his relationship with God.

Soon when the time is right, and the Lord leads me, I will tell him from God's Word, exactly what it is he is doing.

Beloved of God, I know this has been a very long letter. But I encourage you to considder these things I say, and may the Lord add to you more understanding so that you might also return to myunderstanding what is lacking.


Regards,
El Harris

 2009/9/5 17:15Profile









 Re:

I cannot give you specific verses but the position of the Apostle is the position in which Christ sits. The Apostle is the lowest rank that one can receive. He is the one that gets beat up more often then most for none understand him even believers (as we can see even in Paul's writings, there is great division). He is a servant of servants. Truly this calling brings a man more closer to Christ than all callings. He has the authority to establish Churches. There are many that claim to be an Apostle today but lord over the people instead of serving them through our LORD Jesus. An Apostle can exercise all the positions of the other callings as well, namely the Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher. Jesus fulfilled all those positions and more, even the breaking of bread His body the Apostle must bear. There is great glory for the Apostle but the price comes with a complete shut down of self.

 2009/9/5 20:09
elharris
Member



Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59


 Re:

Quote:
Deep Thinker wrote:

I cannot give you specific verses but the position of the Apostle is the position in which Christ sits.

The Apostle is the lowest rank that one can receive.

He is the one that gets beat up more often then most for none understand him even believers (as we can see even in Paul's writings, there is great division).

He is a servant of servants. Truly this calling brings a man more closer to Christ than all callings.

He has the authority to establish Churches.

There are many that claim to be an Apostle today but lord over the people instead of serving them through our LORD Jesus.

An Apostle can exercise all the positions of the other callings as well, namely the Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher.

Jesus fulfilled all those positions and more, even the breaking of bread His body the Apostle must bear.

There is great glory for the Apostle but the price comes with a complete shut down of self.



I read your post, and then reread it a couple of times over a few days. Durring that time, I also got to thinking about how Jesus is the chief corner stone, and about how the apostles and prophets are the foundation of the building. That is as you said "the lowest position".

I never really understood that, till you mentioned what you did, even though I have read the scripture that I think you are refering to.

1 Cor 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

See how we get blessed by adding to each others understanding.

You know when you think about it, they were first, but they were last.

They are or were first, in that the gospel was committed unto them.

Yet they are last, that is in the lowest position, because all the other lively stones are build up upon them and higher than them. They along with prophets are the foundation.

I also gleened what you said about an apostle being able to operate in all those functions.

Regards,
El Harris

 2009/9/9 23:27Profile





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