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 to the 'wolve' in sheeps clothing, "catholic"

if I am the only poster on this forum who repudiates your romanism and your aposatasy, so be it, for the institution in rome totally and utterly denies the Atoning Precious Blood of Christ, It is Jesus and Him crucified, Saviour and Messiah, taking the form of man, Son of God who went to the Cross, the cruel tree, to make atonement to cover our sins, Jesus is the One Who saves us, not that faux sinful roman institution,and the man of perdition, your pope, who claims he is the vicar of Christ. This is sinful, and spits in the Eye of God, ajnd you are right, I have no love for this sinfullness. For a GROUP OF PEOPLE TO CALL THE POPE "Holy Father" is the most sinful denomic pronouncment ever uttered, there is only ONE Holy Father and that is God Almighty, any other pronouncement is of the devil.

You wrote:

Quote:
Don't you think? Especially since I already believe in hell and the necessity of repentance.



Insult aside, I'm glad you "believe" in hell and glad you "believe" in the necessity of repentance, but stop "believeing" and start walking in the way of Truth, and walk away from rome and walk away from the dictates of popery and walk into the waiting Arms of Jesus, He is your only Hope. romanism and popery are the road to hell, the other posters around here, I believe, think that they can convince you of your error by dialogue. I disaagree. Light has no fellowship with darkness, and right now, you are firmly embraced in the bosom of the anti-christ. I say that because you lift up the pope and since the pope in all truth denies Christ's provisions, he is anti-Christ, and by you embracing that hellish blasphemous institution, you are a minion of anti-Christ, a confused soul trapped in the tarpits of romanism and popery.

I am not speaking out of ignorance as you so claim, I am speaking out of truth, and the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ was NOT lost, it was embraced by Godly men who would not kiss the ring of this beast in rome, men who gave their blood as martyrs to protect the True Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, a True Gospel that utterly repudiated the blasphemy of rome and it's idolatry and fornications, superstitutions and mary worship. It;s history is so sick and sinful, I am bewildered that I am one of the few posters that is calling that scarlet whore of babylon, romanism, what is really is, blashpemous and sinful,. a tool of satan.

Please, I am begging you, turn away from this sin, before its too late, please. Jesus can and WILL save you.

 2009/8/24 5:55
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Authority and Accountability

Quote:
Let me state this...that the man who declares that he accepts only the Bible as his authority in religious matters does not really mean it. For he really believes in what he himself thinks any given passage of the Bible to mean, which might not be what the Bible means at all. For such a person, the only ultimate authority in religious matters is not that of the Bible, BUT THAT OF HIS OWN JUDGEMENT CONCERNING IT, and he has no assurance that his own judgment is any more reliable than that of others whose interpretation differs from his and who honestly believe his interpretation to be quite mistaken.



This is where error begets more error. When it comes to accountability it is not an organization or some other man that will give an account to God for me- but each person will give an account to God for himself/herself and that which the Lord has entrusted to them. The scriptures do not support the notion of an additional mediator between us and God. And because God has made me accountable as an [i]individual[/i] for all I believe and how I respond to that belief, the responsibility for discovery also rests on me as an [i]individual[/i].

[color=000066]Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But continue you in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing of whom you have learned them; And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works. (II Timothy 3-4) ASV[/color]

This is just one example of how individuals are accountable for responding rightly to those things that they know are true. At this stage in Church history there is absolutely no framework of authority whatsoever in the Church, but that individual churches with their individual lampstands received revelation from Christ intended to keep that local church a right representation of God fulfilling the purposes of the churches as God had designed them.

The apostles founded churches and nothing else. Those churches existed independent of each other. Keep that clear. There was never a 'head of the Churches' or an organized hierarchy of leadership passing on rulings and doctrines enforced upon the rest. This is certainly the case also in Acts 15. God did not intend that the church at Jerusalem would somehow impose authority over the church at Antioch, but rather the question was more of a general position as to what was to be expected of the gentiles as they came to Christ. Keep that clear also.

Any attempt to establish anything beyond a local church must be admitted to be a humanly devised entity.

[color=000066]And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch (Acts 14:22)

And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches. (Acts 15:41)[/color]

This is just a few examples, again, of how the apostles were in the business of winning souls to Christ that might become assemblies meeting together in the name of the Lord and that Christ would walk in the midst of them revealing His will and purpose to that local assembly. This is Christ as the head of the Body focusing on the specific needs of that local group. In this way though there are 7 lampstands in Revelation 2-3 there are as many lampstands in the earth as there are local assemblies gathering together in His name. Each of these lampstands serve the purpose as being a light in the area they are established.

So accountability to God can pass no father than the local assembly and the individuals within that assembly because that is the extent to which God designed His order within the churches. Jesus Christ our great High Priest functions as the Holy Priest of the Old Testament maintaining the oil and flame of the lampstand. It is HIS job and no one else.

And because the local churches are autonomous they can live and die without effecting the rest of the Body. This model cannot be improved upon. Had men hearkened to God's design in establishing churches we had seen a great deal more progress in the spread of the Gospel and a lot less deception spreading like wildfire through hierarchies and organizations. I have come to realize over the years both the Wisdom of God and the folly of men as they have presumed to alter His design in their lust for power and authority. What will God do with men that have run roughshod over His design desiring to ascend into the hill of God and be like the Most High God?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/8/24 7:45Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Catholic,

I apologize if my response to your original question has already been addressed in a like manner to my question back to you but the thread responses are long and I hope my question has an answer inherently in it that is satisfying to you. I would answer your question with a question and that is, is Scripture sufficient for the believer? If so, then I don't have to look anywhere else or to anyone else but merely discern the spirits in the manner prescribed in the epistles and check all teaching by Scripture ( as the Bereans did ) to see if what is being taught is true.

 2009/8/24 8:13Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7479
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
that is, is Scripture sufficient for the believer? If so, then I don't have to look anywhere else or to anyone else but merely discern the spirits in the manner prescribed in the epistles and check all teaching by Scripture ( as the Bereans did ) to see if what is being taught is true.



AMEN!

I have one observation to share.

Protestants like to think they believe in sola scripture, that they have no pope to whom they must look to know how scripture is to be understood. But let an issue come up on which there is a disagreement, sola scripture is not adequate: a writer, a scholar, leader must be used to tell one how this is to be understood. Yup, evangelicals do the same thing: they just do not call these scholars, leaders pope.

My conclusion is this is an area all Christians struggle with in some form or another - we are not immune from it, unfortunately, because the enemy of our souls is working hard to destroy wherever and however he can (EDIT) to divert our attention away from God himself, a violation of the first commandment. And he is succeeding.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/8/24 10:04Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2756
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
To allow and encourage this was inevitably to admit the right of private judgment in interpreting it. [It was now] exposed to the possible vagaries of private interpretation, an absolute authority displacing the authority of the Catholic Church



Statements such as this, no matter what their source, make it very clear that Catholics have authority in the wrong place. The authority is not in the body, it is in the Head (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18). The ruling is not in the kingdom, but in the King (Heb. 7:1-2; Rev. 1:5-6). The authority is not in the church, but in Christ (Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22). The church is not the Savior, but simply the body of the saved (Acts 2:47; Eph. 5:22-24).



Quote:
The Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church alone, claims to be the divinely-appointed and infallible teacher at hand for this purpose, and hers is the only truly biblical position.



It's interesting that the Catholics claim that the church cannot teach error because Jesus promised to always be with the church but there are many verses in the New testament that declare that the church would not be preserved from error. The Bible clearly speaks of a great falling away and that many false teachers would come from [b]within[/b] the church and [b]many[/b] would follow them. Even bishops would be the source of false teaching according to Acts 20.

The Apostle Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the apostasy was already underway, "for the mystery of iniquity is already at work..." (Verse 7). It started in Paul's day and was to continue until the second coming of Christ. He added, "...Whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of his mouth and will destroy with the brightness of his coming." (Verse 8). It is interesting to note the fact that the characteristics of the departing group are identical with those of the Catholic Church. Everyone knows that the Catholic Church forbids its people to eat meat on Friday and also forbids some from marriage. Also, the only way for the wicked one to last from Paul's day to the second coming of Christ is to have a continual succession. It could not be some wicked person of the past because he will not be here for the Lord to slay when He comes. Furthermore, it could not be ones in the future because their iniquity would not have started in Paul's day. It must, therefore, be a continual succession from the beginning until now. The Catholic Church fits the apostles' description of the great apostasy.

The seven letters to the churches in Asia that are found in the book of Revelation make it clear that a church keeps its identity as belonging to Christ only as it continues in Christ's word. They reveal that Christ did not establish His church as one that could never fall into error, because some of them did. The early churches had to "earnestly contend" and be ever watchful for error from within. The Catholic idea of an infallible church makes it a church that can neither recognize or correct its errors.

In Christ,

Ron

EDIT: corrected spelling and grammatical errors


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Ron Halverson

 2009/8/24 10:17Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Statements such as this, no matter what their source, make it very clear that Catholics have authority in the wrong place. The authority is not in the body, it is in the Head (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18). The ruling is not in the kingdom, but in the King (Heb. 7:1-2; Rev. 1:5-6). The authority is in not in the church, but in Christ (Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22). The church is not the Savior, but simply the body of the saved (Acts 2:47; Eph. 5:22-24).



Well said Ron.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/8/24 10:23Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Catholic,

I would also like to add to the comments previously made about the Berean example and Paul's commendation of the Bereans. You must find it at least interesting if not persuasive that in the Berean example Paul did not commend the Bereans on the basis of their bowing down and submission to his apostolic authority. Rather, Paul commended them on their belief in the truth of the doctrines about which he preached as they compared such teaching to Scripture. If the apostles and those they annointed believed they were the true "head" of the church in the sense held by the RCC, then wouldn't that authority be the only necessary argument or claim for accuracy Paul would ever need to make to believers or unbelievers in order to require obedience to the teachings of the "Church"? Paul clearly doesn't do that.

There are many instances, including examples where Christ Himself used the Scriptures as proofs of His teaching based on internal consistencies of Scripure and His teachings, rather than resorting to a strict authoritarian approach advocated by the RCC. Why would there be this constant appeal to Scripture if what is really sufficient is not Scripture itself, but rather the bottom line that if the "Church" says it is true, then it is true.

 2009/8/24 10:58Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
If the apostles and those they annointed believed they were the true "head" of the church in the sense held by the RCC, then wouldn't that authority be the only necessary argument or claim for accuracy Paul would ever need to make to believers or unbelievers in order to require obedience to the teachings of the "Church"? Paul clearly doesn't do that.



Amen to that.

Quote:
There are many instances, including examples where Christ Himself used the Scriptures as proofs of His teaching based on internal consistencies of Scripure and His teachings, rather than resorting to a strict authoritarian approach advocated by the RCC. Why would there be this constant appeal to Scripture if what is really sufficient is not Scripture itself, but rather the bottom line that if the "Church" says it is true, then it is true.



And Amen to that.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/8/24 11:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I have one observation to share. Protestants like to think they believe in sola scripture, that they have no pope to whom they must look to know how scripture is to be understood. But let an issue come up on which there is a disagreement, sola scripture is not adequate: a writer, a scholar, leader must be used to tell one how this is to be understood.



Quick note here to ginnyrose:

Thank you for your honesty. As a former anti-Catholic protestant, I too saw this reality. I was on an ocean driven by every wind of doctrine trying to hold fast.

I've got to work at the moment, but I look forward to responding to the rest of you later today, God willing. I think there are some serious misunderstandings about what the church believes.

I do recognize that the way many of you think hasn't been shaped over night. But let me say that there is a reason why the puzzle isn't quite fitting for you.

If only I could explain to you the overwhelming peace I now have in my soul. If only I could explain how Jesus said, "Peace! Be still" to the waves and the winds of doctrine. It is WONDERFUL!

But I know you all want and need answers. I pray that God helps this sinful servant give them. I also pray that the Holy Spirit will hide me behind the victorious cross of Jesus Christ my saviour who loved me and gave himself for me.

You are all special to God and to me.

Catholic

 2009/8/24 12:57









 Re:

"What, then, does the Catholic Church say? She permits and encourages the private reading of Scripture. But she says definitely that no one has the right to interpret the Bible for himself in any way opposed to the official teachings of the ancient Catholic Church. .....Passing over the fact that the majority of people lack the required training in the many different sciences... bearing upon scriptural interpretation necessary even for a merely natural understanding of the Bible...., we have to reckon with the positive provision made by Christ for our instruction in his religion." Catholic

Then which one are you?? Are you the one who is qualified or the one who submits to the qualified?? Are you one who is qualified to interpret scripture as it pertains to the protocol of the Catholic Church?

If so, I would like to be enlightened to the sciences that are necessary for a natural understanding of scripture. What kind of training are we taking about here??? What does it entail??

 2009/8/24 13:13





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