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Joined: 2009/1/16
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 Re:

Abideinhim,

so are you saying you agree with this teaching?

So we have a new nature which we are that never sins. We have still our old nature with us that we need to continually put to death though it is no longer who we are because of Christ. Then there is "us" in between and we can choose either? I mean if we are the new man then why would we ever choose the other.

I'm not sure a lot of people are understanding what I am trying to say since a lot of the answers did not deal directly...

 2009/8/21 16:19Profile









 Re:

In the epistle of 1 John, when speaking about sin, he often is only referring to the ultimate sin of not believing in Christ.

Take for example, "There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

That sin unto death is referring to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It's not believing in Christ.

Take another example, "He who has been born of God, doesn't commit sin."

That's referring to the sin of not believing in Christ.

 2009/8/21 16:59
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

elected wrote:

This doctrine of 2 natures existing at the same time in the christians is foreign to the New Testament teaching.Where in the bible does it say that old nature and the new nature live at the same time with the christian believer?

This dualistic teaching i believe came with Augustin to the church. Our nature is either depraved or holy there is no middle ground, even if that was possible for a christian two live with 2 natures inside him that teaching is carnal and not for mature christians.



Ephesians 4:22: “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.” Here is an exhortation not to sinners, but to a church. Certain expressions in this Epistle show beyond all question the spiritual condition of the members of the church. Paul says that they were “quickened” who had been “dead in trespasses and in sins;” that they were once “afar off,” but were now “made nigh by the blood of Christ;” that they were no more strangers and foreigners, but “fellow-citizens with the saints and of the household of God.” Still again, he tells them to forgive one another “even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you,” and a few verses after that states: “Ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.”
These expressions undoubtedly declare the saved condition of the people to whom the apostle wrote. And yet to these who were “forgiven” and “light in the Lord” and “of the household of God” he writes: “Put off the old man.”

Could anything be plainer? Does not the reader see that something dark and evil is left in the heart of the regenerated man? That this something which is here called the “old man” is not to be pardoned, but taken away, put off,
removed.

This putting off is not a process it's a one time event one day the old man is there the next day the old man is gone.


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/21 18:37Profile
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 Re:


The old man has been crucified on the cross with Christ and we should recken ouselves dead to sin.
'Put off old man' says paul and 'put on the new man', he does not say, 'put aside you old man' or 'your old man will live with your new man'.

We all are called to christian maturity and a life free from intentional sin. Christ has provided for us a full salvation on the Cross.He is our justification, sanctification and redemption.

We are called to be spiritual men not carnal man. A spiritual man recoken himself dead to sin and Christ in Him is the fountain of Life. Out of him flow rivers of living water, he is transformed from one degree of glory to another degree of glory by the grace of God. He is partaker of the devine nature.He lives in a dayly union with God.He obeys the two greatest commandments, loving God with whole of his heart..ect and loving his neighbour as himself.
He knows that without Christ living in him, he will be the worst of sinners. If he detects sin in his heart he will be quick to confess it and be cleased in the blood of the Lord.

Paul was a spiritual man, he lived what he preached, his nature was regenerated, pure, sanctified. He was a man filled with the Holy Spirit.He was one of the most holy men and still he considered himself chief of sinners.

After i have discribed the spiritual man or a godly man like Paul, does anyone think that Paul in his christian maturity had two natures living in him at the same time?

Brothers these is a contradiction to believe that
we always will have two natures living in us even if are spiritual or mature believers like Paul. Its not God's will that we drink from 2 sources, 1 bitter and 1 sweet. Our sweet source is Jesus, he gives the water of Life.

Our nature is deprived and evil and we have fallen short of the glory of God, but thanks be to God who has provided for us such a glorious salvation in Jesus Christ to sanctifiy as wholy: spirit, soul and body.

Even our mortal bodies one day will be redeemed.

Who is the Author of our faith Jesus, who is the One who will save us to the uttermost Jesus, Who is the One who delivered us from the power of sin and washes us from all sin Jesus and his all-powerful blood.

Im far from being that spiritual person, God have mercy on me but i strive to be one.

I believe its God will that we should be partakers of devine nature and bear fruit and be christlike. Christ in us is the hope of glory, he is our Vine and we our the branches, he is our Head and We are his Body.




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Redi

 2009/8/21 20:18Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Elected said:
The old man has been crucified on the cross with Christ and we should recken ouselves dead to sin.
'Put off old man' says paul and 'put on the new man', he does not say, 'put aside you old man' or 'your old man will live with your new man'.



You missed it Elected Paul in Ephesians is writing to Christians he says to them "put off the old man".

If we are born of the Spirit then we are spiritual, and how can we be carnal?

Know if the reader of this post is honest with himself you will confess that there is a something at work in you. That something in you has been dethroned it does not have dominion over you it may fight, tempt, seduce, war in you that but it does not rule over you.

Romans 7:21 This something is a law unto itself, the law of sin it urges action that are
in accordance with its own nature. What distinguishes the law of sin though is that it is an inbred law, an inner law it is indwelling. As such it abides in the soul and therefore it is able to apply itself. Sin possesses the very faculties of the soul, the mind, will, and affections, those faculties that drive all that we do. And that means there is no escaping this law thats why Paul states in Heb 12:1 the sin which doth so easily beset us.

In the regenerated life we are both carnal and spiritual. This was said of the Galatian church which had the “flesh” (carnal mind ) and the “Spirit” lusting against each other in their hearts this is the law of sin at work.

The same thing is stated in regard to the Corinthians whom Paul designates as “babes in Christ,” hence born of God, but adds, “ye are carnal.” why because the law of sin is at work.

This dark, troubling something within us is not the remains of our actual sins and personal guilt, but the inherited sin (evil nature) with which we began life. It is something that cannot be pardoned, it cannot be regenerated. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, and so awaits not an impartation of life, but a movement of destruction and death.


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/22 6:11Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re:

There is lot of misunderstanding on this subject simply because of terminology. We need to have an understanding what we are talking about when we refer to "old man", "new man", "sin nature", "flesh", "new creation".

It is very helpful to have a basic understand of spirit, soul, and body when dealing with the nature of man before and after the new birth.

When a person is born again, it is the spirit of man that becomes the new creation or new man in Christ Jesus. The spirit of man recieves the life of Christ, and a new creation is formed. Prior to this the man was seperated from God and was dead in his trespasses and sins. A man that is not saved is either being controlled by his self life or by his body and usually both. A Christian should be controlled by the Holy Spirit, but many are living out of their soul, and a Christian that allows the body to have dominion in their lives is carnal and walks after the flesh. (2Corinthians 5:17), (Ephesians 2:1-3), (1Corinthians 3:1-4).

With the new birth the spirit of man is made alive unto God and the Holy Spirit dwells within the spirit of the man. This spirit man is to have dominance over the soul and body of man. The spirit of man, full of the Holy Spirit should be in ascendancy. (Ephesians 3:16,17). (Galatians 5:16).

At the new birth, the soul of man, which is the mind, will, and emotions, is affected in varying degrees. The problem with many Christians continuing in sin after being born again is usually from either a lack of knowledge of who they are in Christ, and who Christ is in them, or disobedience to the light that they have. It is the will of God that a Christian would be wholly sanctified - spirit, soul, and body. (1Thessalonians 5:23).

The soul of man is the self life, and this self life is to be denied so that the life of Christ that is in the spirit of man can come forth. Unless the one grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone, but if it dies, it will bring forth much fruit. Those that seek to save their life (self life) will loose the (higher life) that God intends for us to walk in. Those that loose their life (self life) will find the abundant life that is availabe for every believer. (Luke 9:23,24), (John 12:24).

If God really has His way with us and we surrender to Him, there is going to be more of Him and less of us.

Mike


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Mike

 2009/8/22 8:10Profile









 Re: A question about sin and our new nature?

paulmcg1 wrote:

Quote:

In the epistle of 1 John, when speaking about sin, he often is only referring to the ultimate sin of not believing in Christ.

Take for example, "There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

That sin unto death is referring to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It's not believing in Christ.

Take another example, "He who has been born of God, doesn't commit sin."

That's referring to the sin of not believing in Christ.

The NASB sheds a bit of light on 1 John, through the use of 'practise' instead of another verb such as [i]do, does[/i].

[i]1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practise the truth;

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practises righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practises sin also practises lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practises righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

1 John 3:8 the one who practises sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practises sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practise righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.[/i]

Manifestly, John is not merely referring to the sin Jesus defined in John 16:9. As Jesus said also: John 20:29.


Alan Martin, in his first address to the Barnsdall conference, pointed out that 'do exploits' should really be, simply 'do'. Dan 11:32. My understanding is, that the word for [i]desire[/i], or [i]lust[/i], as Tyndale originally translated it, is what I do, or, what God does. There is no human (or divine) faculty of will, separate from 'I', as in [i]I will[/i], or, [i]I desire[/i]. We 'do' what we [i][b]want[/i][/b].

I believe this means we cannot be off the hook for any sin we commit, by any other means than the grace of the cross of Christ and the grace of true repentance towards God.



The following is a general comment. I agree that [i]in the Spirit*[/i], we are complete in Christ - a new creation - and fully accepted by God.

Paul the apostle's urgency about the renewing of the mind, the sacrificing of the desires of the body and the mortification of its desire to sin, is - if we enforce upon ourselves these disciplines through the power and aid of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11, 12, 13) - the means by which we bring the spiritual* truth (fact) to bear upon our flesh that we may be changed: that our souls may be restored to the likeness of Christ's (Psa 23:3).

 2009/8/22 8:33
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

AbideinHim wrote:

If God really has His way with us and we surrender to Him, there is going to be more of Him and less of us.



If God really has his way with us the we will die then and only then are we freed from sin that indwells.

Paul tells us that the "body of sin" is to be "destroyed." And this is not to be done at death, for he says immediately after that we should no longer "serve sin." It is to be done in life, that we may present a holy and blameless life to the world.

Rom 6:20 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

There is not a more fearful and certain mode of death known on earth than that of the cross. The crucified man is bound to die.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul states clearly "He that is dead is free from Sin" This blows up the whole romantic idea of "more on him less of me" no if God has his way in your life he will bring you to the cross, and on that cross you will die.

After the cross you find that you'll live, but it's not you that lives but Christ that lives in you.


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/22 11:07Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
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 Re:

It is my opinion that scripture teaches plainly that we are a three part being, spirit, soul, and body. When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night (John 3), he became a little confused at Jesus statement that he must be born again. He was focused on the body alone. Jesus had to teach him that it was his spirit that was born again. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. I believe that our "nature" is bound up in our spirit. I also believe that our spirit is the part of us that is truly who we are. So, when we are born again, our spirit is the part of us that is a totally new creation. 2 Cor. 5:17. I believe our soul is that part of us comprised of mind, will, and emotion. It is the part that Paul said must be renewed in Romans 12:2. This is where the progressive work of walking out sanctification takes place. Our body is simply the house of flesh we live in.

Understanding this is key, I believe, to understanding several passages such as the apparent contradiction found in the first three chapters of 1 John. 2 Corinthians 5:21 tells us that because Jesus became sin for me, I have been made the very righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I have become a son of God. 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:17. Now it is obvious that this has not happened in my body. And, I still wrestle with what I call the flesh(the soul part of man) because it has been programmed with a lot of ungodly stuff and I am in process of renewing my mind. But, in my spirit, I am perfected forever Hebrews 10:14.

So what does this all mean? Well, there is no duality of natures first of all. Some would say that in Romans 7, Paul is describing the "white dog and black dog" scenario. Not so. He is describing the futility of trying to live up to
God's standards by keeping the law and sums it up by saying that it is only through Jesus that he would be delivered from the body of this death (the law is often referred to as a ministration of death and is the topic that Paul has been dealing with up to this point in Romans).

It is possible for me to commit sins. I think I can say pretty confidently that my own death or the coming of Christ back to earth are the only two events that are going to assure that I will never sin again. But, that action of sin did not cause me to somehow become contaminated in my spirit. It did not cause me to lose my salvation. (a quick aside. Before anyone thinks I am saying that it is impossible to lose salvation, that is not what I am saying. Scripture clearly lays out the manner in which I may do that, but it is not by committing an action of sin. See Hebrews 4, Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, ) But, if I have been born again, my reaction should be an immediate burden from the spirit that I have violated, and an immediate repentance on my part.

I think understanding that I have a new nature is vital to reckoning myself dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God. How can I be dead to sin if there is still in me that nature of sin? It is vital to my ability to overcome the condemnation of the enemy and in my ability to walk in victory over sin. Once I have been purged by the blood of Jesus, I should have no more conscience of sin. I don't live with consciousness of sin in me, I live with a consciousness that I have been made righteous by the shed blood of Jesus. I need to understand who I am in Christ. I can tell you from my own experience, this one revelation has done more to launch me into a life of holiness and obedience and denying the flesh than any other thing has ever done.


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Travis

 2009/8/22 16:54Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

I must decrease, He must increase. The only place He can increase is in my soul/mind. My spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, the whole bucket of Grace "If I don't have the Spirit of Christ I am none of His. By His Spirit in me, that portion of my being is perfect. This body of flesh has been quickened to hold the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit teacher and even where the Father makes His "abode" with Christ in me. This body of flesh still has the, what I call programed body pulls. These body pulls say, this is what you have programed me to do in the flesh and I want to keep them just as they are. The renewing of our mind/soul, says no, the flesh says yes. Sometimes the flesh wins, but more and more the renewed mind/soul can say no and win the battle. By the Holy Spirit Teacher showing what the Spirit of Christ in me, in His image, which I am becoming more and more like Him, line upon line and precept upon precept.

When the flesh falls, Like Paul, I can proclaim in being set free from this body of death, Through Christ Jesus my Lord, I am becoming the image of Christ that God has birthed me to be in by His incorruptable Seed that is in me. One resurrection day it will be complete and I truly will be the son of God that the "Christ in me, the Hope of Glory" is presenting all those in Christ prefect to the Father and so shall we ever be with the Lord, my fellow brothers and sisters.

Freed from the programed body pulls, by the Advocate with the Father, upon confession, God is faithful ad Just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness because of the Cross and the Christ He has rebirthed in me, to give me new life in Christ. No more condemnation for those in Him. It is Christ as me, not me as Christ, for He truly is my Spirit and Life giver.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/8/22 17:50Profile





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