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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Exposing the Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

quote from murrcolr: "In a nutshell Paul is saying “I was the chief of sinner but now I am your example of a Christian”

Paul did not say "of whom I WAS chief" but "of whom I AM chief. If he meant to say he used to be the chief of sinners in the past the translaters would have used the word "was" and not "am". Seems clear to me it's in the present tense not the past.

quote from murrcolr: "Now the statement above is far different from "I am such a great sinner"

Paul's statement is different in that Paul called himself the greatest of sinners, not just such a great sinner.

If Paul considered himself the greatest of sinners though God used him so powerfully should we really have a problem in considering ourselves sinners?

Paul is saying that in and of himself he is nothing but a hell-deserving sinner. That is what we all are in reality. Yet if we are in Christ God does not see our sins and hold them against us to condemn us(Rom.8:1). God sees the righteousness of His own Son applied to our account(Phil.3:9). We are His blood-bought children despite our shortcomings in this life.

I know that some take the grace of God as a liscense to sin and are deceived and hell-bound. But that does not negate the truth of God's grace at work in the life of every true child of God.

Seems clear to me that we are sinners and saints at the same time. We are saints because God has set us apart for Himself and His grace is powerfully at work in our lives, conforming us into the image of Christ. We are sinners because we still sin in this body of death, until we receive our full adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

My concern is with those who would be so adamant in having us believe we can attain sinless perfection in this life for even one whole day. Scripture does not teach such a thing.

After knowing some who have been caught up in that teaching and dealing with it I am convinced there is a demonic presence behind it. I would warn anyone to flee from it as far as they can for it is very destructive spiritually, mentally and emotionally.


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Oracio

 2012/6/27 0:56Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1734


 Re:

Quote:

If Sermonindex should ask me not to post here, I certainly would honor their request, and my blessings would remain with them.


First I want to clarify that I am not here to say who is to post here and who should not. Neither did I ask Greg to stop anyone from posting. I just asked his view on some teachings that are not according to Gospel similar to yours. And I know he does not agree with these teachings. Neither do any man of God who's sermons are uploaded here.

Quote:

Is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (i.e. new Contract with God) the same as The Mosaic Covenant (again Covenant = Contract)?



New Covenant is way higher standard than Old Covenant, old Covenant deals only with Laws that deals with external purification but New Covenant deals with Grace that purifies from Inside. Like Jesus said, if the inside of Cup is pure then the outside will be purified by itself. That is why the blessing of OC where all external like wealth, riches etc.

If my standard of Holiness is in any ways lesser than a Jew who lives by Law then I should put my face on to dust and cry out that I have not experienced NC life at all and I am not saved yet. Our standard should be much more higher than anyone who lives by law. But today most of the Christians live a shameful life much worse than lawless unbelievers. All because of strange doctrine like yours that deviated so much from truth.

Quote:

So when Jesus was in Judea preaching only to His fellow Jews, teaching them how best to keep the Mosaic Law.



Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:17 that he did not come to abolish the law but to strengthen it. Which means his teaching is not just law but something more than that which will strengthens Law. And that is Grace.

The main difference between Law and Grace is this, Law only brings conviction of Sin into our heart and making us Guilty. But Grace will not only bring conviction but also strengthen us to obey and overcome Sin by the power of Holy Spirit. This is the same Power that raised Jesus from Dead is also working in us today to raise our standards to that of God's standard. But for this to happen we need to believe that we will be converted to image of Jesus one day (1 John 3:3). This is the same Holy Spirit who enabled Jesus to live a sinless life and now he is dwelling in us to make us Holy.

If Jesus was able to live a sinless life with the same Holy Spirit then why can't I who is also in the likeness of his earthly form live such life by the power of Same Holy Spirit? If I think I cannot live then it is unbelief. This is what people like you are spreading. What gain do you get by hiding this good news?

Quote:

Had Jesus preached the New Covenant prior to to His Crucifixion, Jesus would have been in violation of the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have nullified Jesus being the unblemished Lamb of God who takes away all our sins with His blood covering.



Is it? Because you believe in such lies you entered into unbelief. Jesus preached New Covenant and he did not sin by doing it.
John 6-54:-He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

These verse Jesus spoke to Jews, how can this be Old Covenant? If he preached only Old Covenant then he should have told them that Eternal life is in keeping law.

This is just one verse, I can quote more but I do not want to argue.

Quote:

The Sermon on the Mount was a brilliant Sermon from Jesus to His people Jews on the best approach to keep the Mosaic Laws.



Sermon on the Mount is not Old Covenant law, if it was old covenant law then it will be only external purification but Sermon on the Mount is all about internal purification. Here Jesus is taking about anger in heart is equivalent to murder, where in Old Covenant is this told? Lust in eye is same as adultery, where in OC is this said? Every thing that Jesus spoke here are all Internal purification, no mention of any external law in the entire sermon that Moses gave to Jews.

It is Shame that Christians do not appreciate beauty of this wonderful sermon and are running away from it, but unbelievers like Mahatma Gandhi has applied it to get freedom for a nation.

Quote:

Jesus never sought to preach the gospel to the gentiles, until after His ressurrection, upon the establishment of the New Covenant.



This alone is true in your entire post. Jesus did not preach to Gentiles nor ask his disciples to go to Gentiles when he was on this earth because a Covenant was not made with Gentiles till then. To ask some one to believe there must be a promise. Without a promise what will Jesus or his disciples ask the Gentiles to believe in? Abraham was given a promise that he will have descendants as much as stars in the sky and he believed it. Without promise there is no belief. Simple, so Jesus wanted his disciples to wait till the Resurrection so that a covenant will be made with Gentiles though his own blood. So your logic of saying Jesus did not want his teachings to be applied to Gentiles that is why he did not go to them is totally wrong.

John 5-45:-
the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

Jews had their hope on Moses but did not believe his writings. Same way people like you teach Christians to have their hope on Jesus but not to believe in his teachings. You know what the judgment is facing you.

If a mans's wife tells him that I believe in you but I will not obey any of your words then is that a true belief? No it is unbelief, she is playing harlot with her husband.


See if you think you will never be Christlike then keep it to your self. I have seen people who have never had even a bad mood by the power of Holy Spirit. They are my heroes, (the Godly of my land are my heroes). I do not want people who call themselves christian but live a shameful life with divorce, adultery etc to tell me that I cannot be Christlike.
Please do not cause any little one of God to stumble by spreading this teaching of unbelief using all your human argument. You might know the what Jesus told about such people (Matthew 18:6). Milestone is a better option!!!


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Sreeram

 2012/6/27 1:25Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

to cut to the chase many great men of god have been arguging about this for years ,,both sides of the camp are solid christan,,look at george whitfield one of the greastes preaches scince the apostals ,,weasly said that ,but weasly himself taught perfecinisim ,,but entirely sinless perfection

it is absaulty a sin to slander and with a wide brush tar all those who taught and believed as whitfield did

and vica verse to slander the dead saint of the calaber of weasly and others who believed as he

iv seen in hapen on this thred

be slow to speak and slow to wrath

do we realy beleieve this scripture

we may do well to put the breaks on our mouths ,and repent our selfs ,,,,thats why i dont post much in here because satan will use opatunity with threds like this and others ,to led us into sin

let us not think we are the holy spirit our selfs ,,and lets not think we need to win the arument ,and be quick to type ,,, and allways puch our theoligy

now that is what greg believs ,,and i thank god we have moderatos mature enough to keep there fingers slow to type and slow to wrath

brother please concider what iv mentioned

may god bless us with powerfull convictions in all arears of our lives in jesus name

lets pray more and do less of these threads ,,that will please god

brotherS revivel DOES NOT COME LIKE THIS

 2012/6/27 4:28Profile









 Re:

brothergary

They cannot both be right and it is extremely important to get it right on this one.

One of them is teaching error and fatally misleading people as, if the doctrine of entire sanctification is correct, as per Wesley, and I believe it is (give or take a few modifications) then many who call Him Lord will not be getting into heaven. Yes it is meant to scare - complacency is of the devil.

Paul had many strong words to say about those who taught error and so did Jesus. Revival comes when the truth is broadcast and it is this truth when the light is cast upon it that brings Pentecostal blessings down.

 2012/6/28 2:32
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

sister revivle came through the doctrines of both men

sister there was enough truth in both of those men to rock the world to this day

blessings

 2012/6/28 5:19Profile









 Re:

brothergary can you tell me which revivals were not based on men being convicted by the Holy Spirit that they must be holy and baptised by the Holy Spirit? Which truth was suddenly realised and caused such a change in believers? I am not talking about a time where there are conversions. Revival is where Gods people are revived.

 2012/6/28 10:59
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

brothagary, John Wesley did not teach what some haved seemed to be presenting in this thread, especially in the opening post. I think you know what I'm referring to. I just started this thread on that topic in case anyone is interested:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45510&forum=36

blessings,
Oracio


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Oracio

 2012/6/28 13:30Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: My belief is that it is possible to live a life where we "sin no more" although I cannot say it's a fact in my life.

Why did I say that I believed it was possible, I used to be a very violent man my temper was uncontrollable and when I would that anger in me was roused I would black out forgetting completely what I done during the rage.

Eventually I cried out to God to save me and deliver me from the anger and rage before I killed someone.

Today I am saved and I am delivered completely from the anger and rage that once plagued my life, it is gone, it’s is no longer apart of me.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Can you imagine --- being made free from sin --- we became the servants of righteousness..

Roms 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

BUT NOW being made FREE FROM SIN you have BECOME THE SERVANT OF GOD.

Go and Sin no more




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Colin Murray

 2012/6/28 16:26Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Blayne

Hi Blayne, I am stepping back for a while from posting but I want to encourage you to keep posting. Many of the same questions that you have had in the past I also have had, I have came to many simmilar conclusions but as I read what you write it is very evident that you have much surpassed me.

I am getting much blessings from your post!!

 2012/6/29 23:06Profile





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