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Sarah4Him
Member



Joined: 2009/1/8
Posts: 13


 Re:

Hi Mike,
I agree, in fact in my personal opinion God uses those people who are not seen by men, much more than those who are "seen" by men, or are in the limelight.

God bless,
Sarah



Quote:
Hi Sarah, I hear you sister and I have shared your same frustration, but it is much better to receive honor from the Lord than from men. Those that receive honor from men have already received their reward. I love ministries that give to people that can't give you anything in return such as street ministry, prison ministry, and just ministering to the poor and needy. God has a much better compensation than anything that man can do for you. His presence and good pleasure is worth it all. Mike

 2009/7/17 18:12Profile
Sarah4Him
Member



Joined: 2009/1/8
Posts: 13


 Re:

Quote:
I must say i found the book very helpful.the author had no particular axe to grind or push me away from my faith.



I agree with the above comment. In fact, if my memory serves me well Frank actually states in the introduction of Pagan Christianity that he does not agree with using the information in the book to sway people from IC and he doesn't agree with people using it to do that very thing.

Frank states that he and George Barna....who actually did most of the work for historical references....and George Barna actually is from the IC.....they decided to write the book together because there isn't another documentation that explains the roots of all these traditions.

I'm not sure how much I like Frank Viola actually, but the book is filled with historical references actually.



God bless,
Sarah

 2009/7/17 18:16Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:

Sarah4Him wrote:
Quote:
I must say i found the book very helpful.the author had no particular axe to grind or push me away from my faith.



I agree with the above comment. In fact, if my memory serves me well Frank actually states in the introduction of Pagan Christianity that he does not agree with using the information in the book to sway people from IC and he doesn't agree with people using it to do that very thing.


Sarah




Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.

Grace to you!

 2009/7/17 20:14Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

rbanks wrote:

Quote:


Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.




rbanks. We get it. You don't recommend the book.


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/7/17 22:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.



What if it's true?

 2009/7/17 23:02
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The book Pagan Christianity(Don't be Duped}

[i]Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.

Grace to you![/i]

Sarcasm?

From your original post;

[i]The problems with most gatherings today are _________[/i]"

There is no difference between the sarcasm on the one hand and your hypocrisy on the other. Sorry if that sounds unduly harsh. Rbanks you got off completely on the wrong foot here. Giving your opinion on something that you at best scanned the chapter headings of and at worst took others thought's for is frankly the height of duplicity.

If you replaced "Pagan Christianity" with the scriptures and gave them this same kind of treatment, would you expect anyone to hear you?

Read the book if you are going to give a commentary on it.

A search through the site will provide a handful of threads from those who have indeed read the book. I am not one of them and I have no opinion one way or the other.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/7/17 23:54Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Mike,
Do you have a calling to write satire??? I loved it!

I googled 'pagan Christianity' and was appalled at what I found - such gross ignorance on the part of those writers, not the ones of this book. So, I ordered it from Amazon and hope to read it for myself.

What I found on the web left me shaking my head....those writers have no clue of Judaism, have no clue of temple worship, the OT law.

My position is that God made all things good and are to be enjoyed. BUT the enemy came along and perverted it all. So regardless what you have its orgins can be traced back to God. The enemy cannot come up with anything original - he is not that smart. He is fighting God and will use what God created that is wonderful and perverted it, sometimes into forms that cannot be recognized as being originally from God. This is the mindset I will take into reading this book once it arrives. Titus 1:15.

My thoughts,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/7/18 4:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.

Grace to you!





[b]"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion."[/b] Proverbs 18:2

reformer

 2009/7/18 7:25
Billy7
Member



Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 61


 Re:

Good morning everyone,

While I don't post very often on these threads, I do frequent them often and enjoy reading the discussions, such as this one--very interesting indeed. In regards to this discussion, I recently "listened" to the audio version of the book "Pagan Christianity". It can be purchased here:

http://christianaudio.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pagan+christianity&x=6&y=8

As for my opinion of the book (for what it's worth), I found it to be very informative, to say the least. The author goes to great pains to lay out the history of why we do church the way we do. The book is a wonderful source of history, covering everything from the early church, up through the reformation, on into the 19th century revival/evangelistic movement, and right on into the modern church of today.

The book covers the "why" of the way we do things--why do we gather on Sundays, say a prayer, sing three songs, take up an offering, preach a sermon, have an alter call, sing another song, say another prayer, and go home until next week, when we gather to do it all over again. The book answers the questions of where did this "form" of "worship" come from. It also goes on to compare the current modern methods of "worship" with what is written in the Scriptures concerning the subject. The book offers a lot of food for thought, which I believe is the author's primary motive.

Anyway, hope this helps anyone on the fence about reading it, and I hope everyone has a blessed day in the Lord.

Billy Evans


_________________
Billy Evans

 2009/7/18 7:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Billy7 wrote:
Good morning everyone,

While I don't post very often on these threads, I do frequent them often and enjoy reading the discussions, such as this one--very interesting indeed. In regards to this discussion, I recently "listened" to the audio version of the book "Pagan Christianity". It can be purchased here:

http://christianaudio.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pagan+christianity&x=6&y=8

As for my opinion of the book (for what it's worth), I found it to be very informative, to say the least. The author goes to great pains to lay out the history of why we do church the way we do. The book is a wonderful source of history, covering everything from the early church, up through the reformation, on into the 19th century revival/evangelistic movement, and right on into the modern church of today.

The book covers the "why" of the way we do things--why do we gather on Sundays, say a prayer, sing three songs, take up an offering, preach a sermon, have an alter call, sing another song, say another prayer, and go home until next week, when we gather to do it all over again. The book answers the questions of where did this "form" of "worship" come from. It also goes on to compare the current modern methods of "worship" with what is written in the Scriptures concerning the subject. The book offers a lot of food for thought, which I believe is the author's primary motive.

Anyway, hope this helps anyone on the fence about reading it, and I hope everyone has a blessed day in the Lord.

Billy Evans



Billy7, that's all that we have been saying from those who read the book. I have not read from the book to where Mr. Viola bashes the institutional church, but you say correctly, [b][i]"The book covers the "why" of the way we do things..."[/b][/i]. That all the book speaks about, he has stated if you are content with how you do "church", then that is fine, but if not there are other alternative ways to explore and still be within a biblical context.

It bothers me that this book is getting a bad rap when it has not even been read from some on this thread. If the book is so bad why has it been endorsed by prominent teachers, missionaries and pastors that still function within a institutional setting?

reformer

 2009/7/18 8:59





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