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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

dear brother, thank you for your reply, i knew all you wrote from earlier, some of the other brethren have same beliefs as you, also heard some other angles, some i agree on but some i do not, i find it inconsistent with much other scripture and what the sum of all Gods word teaches.

I have already answered and vented my thoughts about many of your objections earlier in another thread "can a born again christian lose his salvation" , so if you have the energy you can go through the first couple of pages and perhaps answer some of my thoughts? i read calvin, i read luther, i have read many reformed authors and listened to many preachers, some i have great respect for and like a lot, some of my favorite authors are reformed. But i see another picture in scripture, reformed theology to me is not the "fullness" of all scripture, just one side of the coin, and thus not "ALL" truth. And no one has of yet given me a explanation that would reconcile what you have written with hundred of other scriptures. Many have tried but either they have made those scriptures of less importance, or bent them or made them mean something else then what is clearly written.

If you have time and energy look at the other thread and if you can shed light to the concerns i have concerning once saved always saved you are welcome, but i reject that doctrine based on what Jesus said, and the Apostles taught. As long as we want to be saved we are eternally secure, once we forsake God by pursuing self, sin the world etc i am not sure such a believer is safe.

No one can pluck us out of Gods hand, not even satan, but God does not force you to remain, if you like jump out yourself you are most welcome to, that is what i see in scripture, The Lord did not force Judas or any other to follow him, if they wanted to leave they could have, one did, spiritually. But i am not saying these are my rock solid beliefs, i just think how you see it and many others are not exactly what scripture teaches, but if you care join the other thread and perhaps answer my questions, concerns, please do. I hope we can be graceful and humble as the Lord was. If we disagree, we can agree on that and be brothers who love one another, that is the mark of his church, not correctness of doctrine, but that we love one another.

Gods peace and grace


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/14 7:53Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
...
No one can pluck us out of Gods hand, not even satan, but God does not force you to remain, if you like jump out yourself you are most welcome to, that is what i see in scripture, The Lord did not force Judas or any other to follow him, if they wanted to leave they could have, one did, spiritually. But i am not saying these are my rock solid beliefs, i just think how you see it and many others are not exactly what scripture teaches, but if you care join the other thread and perhaps answer my questions, concerns, please do. I hope we can be graceful and humble as the Lord was. If we disagree, we can agree on that and be brothers who love one another, that is the mark of his church, not correctness of doctrine, but that we love one another.

Gods peace and grace


Hi. I might address the other thread if I find time... But for now,

I must restate what I said right before you,
Quote:
John 6:44, "44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

[b]So all who are drawn by the Father are raised up to eternal life at the last day.[/b]


Can you please tell me how you understand this? It seems so clear to me... :-(

For the record, I strongly dislike the term, "once saved, always saved." It stinks of easy-believeism and false assurance. Let's go with "the final perseverance of the saints"-- or atleast "eternal security" please... :-)

Quote:
As long as we want to be saved we are eternally secure, ...


I can't say I agree with this.
See Romans 9:16,
"16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. "
&
Philippians 1:6,
"6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Quote:
...once we forsake God by pursuing self, sin the world etc i am not sure such a believer is safe.


I agree with this! But I would say he is in danger of being a false convert.

Please, consider the verse, Philippians 2:12,
[b]12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.[/b]

Now, consider the very next verse, Philippians 2:13,[b]
[u]13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b][/u]

Do you see it? We do, in a sense, will it, but all the while IT IS GOD which works in us.


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Adam

 2009/7/14 8:14Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

well, i believe no man can come to christ unless the Father draws him, where i might disagree with you is that he would only draw a few people he chose like a lottery so to speak, i speak as a fool now, hope you can bear with me. But i think it comes down to what we believe, if we believe there is the slightest possibility for a true born again believer to somehow end up lost, then it would be a possibility that judas once was a true follower of Christ, and if so it purpose to be in the word is not to scare us, nothing is, if we are believers and are scared of God we have not seen him as a father yet, so maybe Judas was a true believer maybe he was not, i do not hold to the eternal security doctrine, so i have a door open for the possibility, if you totally reject the possibility then i understand how you think etc. And in a case like this, with a handful of verses, among wich some are "dim" as to know exactly what they meen, it may be wise not to say definitely it is this way.

I think it was possible he once was a believer and later became a devil.

but i do not know :-)


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/14 9:26Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Was Judas a true believer at one point?

i could give much more reasons, scriptures etc, but i have done so many times i lost count, if you are interested you have most of my concerns and scriptures that makes me doubt the osas doctrine you can find [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29565&forum=36&94]in this thread the first couple of pages[/url] wont take you long to read my posts, not to long :-)


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/14 9:38Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:
well, i believe no man can come to christ unless the Father draws him, where i might disagree with you is that he would only draw a few people he chose like a lottery so to speak


Do you believe that the Father draws everyone?

If so, then you must believe that every single person in the entire world will be raised up to eternal life on the last day.

As Jesus said in John 6, "44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

So we see that all who are drawn are raised up to eternal life on the last day.


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Adam

 2009/7/14 9:41Profile
yoadam
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Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Here, listen to James White, He is so much clearer than I am!

Quote:

Secure in the Father and the Son

Jesus said, “Everyone whom the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out; because I have come from heaven not in order to do My will but the will of Him who sent Me; and this is the will of the one who sent Me: that of all which He has given Me from Him, I lose nothing but raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:37-39). Jesus presents the complete sovereignty of God in salvation. All that the Father gives to Jesus - everyone - will come to Him. The operative factor in answering the question of why some come and others, presented with the same opportunity, do not, is simply the nature of the Father’s choice. The Father "gives" persons to the Son - a gift of love, to be sure. When the Father gives to the Son a person, that person will come to Christ (as the one avenue to the Father). There is no question that if a person is so given to Christ (or, to use the terminology of verse 44, is so "drawn" by the Father) that he/she will come to Christ. This is the "Godward" side of salvation - absolute certainty and security. Yet, He says that they will "come to Me” which speaks of the human response - not that the human can change the decision of God - but that the response is there all the same. Man is not pictured simply as a “thing” that is bounced around like a ball, but rather a vastly important person who comes to Christ for salvation, all as the result of the gracious working of God in his/her life.

Jesus continues by stating that when one is so given to Him by the Father, and comes to Him, that one is secure in their relationship with Him He will never cast them out, The aorist subjunctive of strong denial makes it clear that rejection of one who seeks refuge in Christ is a complete and total impossibility. What words to a sinners heart! Those who come to Christ will find Him a loving Lord who will never cast out those who trust in Him!

Why will the Lord never cast out those who come to Him? Verse 38 continues the thought with the explanation - the Son has come to do the will of the Father. And what is the will of the Father? That “of all which He has given Me from Him I lose nothing hut raise it up at the last day.” Can we doubt that Christ will do what He promises? Will the Lord Jesus ever fail to do the Father’s will? Here is eternal security beyond dispute. But note that again all is pre-eminently balanced - the security of the person is based on two things - the will of the Father that none he lost, and secondly, the fact that those who are not lost are those who are given to the Son by the Father Himself. So, in reality, there is security in the Father (He gives us to Christ) and security in the Son (He always does the Father’s will).

The realization of the co-operation and interaction of the Father and the Son in the salvation of each individual Christian is an awesome thing! It is self-evident why so many soteriological systems cannot deal with eternal security - it is based on the understanding that salvation is completely the work of God! Man is the object of salvation, the object of God’s sovereign grace. The gospel is the message of grace, and grace is something given totally on the basis of God’s desire to give it. Such is terribly damaging to man’s “self-esteem” and to any concept of our being able to save ourselves or even to “help God along” in our being made righteous. We must realize that we come to God wholly unworthy of His love and grace, totally incapable of effecting even the beginning of His work in our hearts.

Once we rest ourselves in God’s provision of salvation, however, we see that our position in Him is one that is based upon the sovereign act of the Father in giving us to the Son, and in the eternal obedience of the Son to the Father in effecting our salvation! Can we possibly picture a more secure situation than this?


http://vintage.aomin.org/eternalsecurity.html


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Adam

 2009/7/14 9:46Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
Do you believe that the Father draws everyone?



yes, he created all men, scripture says he died for all men, and scripture commands all men to repent, scripture says Jesus wept when men did not, seem just weird he would weep when he knew the father had not drawn them? or maybe he was out of the fathers will somehow? God did not those people would be saved and come to christ and yet Jesus wept? seem strange to me

Quote:
If so, then you must believe that every single person in the entire world will be raised up to eternal life on the last day.




No i dont believe that, i believe most will go to hell on that last day, or that is my understanding of scripture.

I believe we are drawn, kept, and worked inside by God, who can boast? yet i know i chose God, and i know men have the ability to chose to love God or not. just as God can be love and wrath at the same time, so can mans will be free and god work in him. Also i do not think God can throw anyone in hell who never could do anything but sin, or have a chance to do anything about it. It is not in Gods character of what he has revealed of himself to me.

But i feel i have been discussing this long enough, i have answered all objections and my beliefs in the other thread, agree or disagree, to me it is what scripture says, i hope you excuse me for withdrawing, but i can not continue to talk these things anymore, God bless you


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/14 9:58Profile
yoadam
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Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:
Do you believe that the Father draws everyone?



yes, he created all men, scripture says he died for all men, and scripture commands all men to repent, scripture says Jesus wept when men did not, seem just weird he would weep when he knew the father had not drawn them? or maybe he was out of the fathers will somehow? God did not those people would be saved and come to christ and yet Jesus wept? seem strange to me


And here lies the problem. All along you have been imposing your presuppositions upon the text ignoring what Jesus clearly teaches. Not to mention most, if not all, of your questions have been clearly answered and your objections clearly refuted within the calvinism thread.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29583&forum=36&46


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Adam

 2009/7/14 10:39Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Was Judas a true believer at one point?

Quote:
God CAN NOT give that type of authority and power to an unbeliever!


O really? Are you sure? The true authority was through Jesus while He was with His disciples, of which one was Judas that what was written might be fulfilled.

Quote:
Judas did all of these along with the other disciples! He was a true follower of Christ


1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The conversation Jesus has in John ch8 and how it progresses is very insightful, it is worth a quick read and some thought. Rember this : Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

While the twelve was out Jesus was commissioning others. The power was is and always will be in Jesus name(authority) and it would seem that God for His own reasons will allow even the most ungodly to exercise powers that seem reserved for the children. It must be accepted that often times the Lord is responding to the seeker and not the suposed bringer of the what ever, healing/deliverence/mercy/etc...So I wouldn't get to hung up on the whole Judas thing, it'll just take away your peace and *zap* your joy away:)


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D.Miller

 2009/7/14 11:05Profile
yblek
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Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

You still did not give any support to a named individual in Scripture who was given God's power to cast out demons in His Name.

If I recall my scripture, there were some sons of Sceva that thought they could cast out demons in the Name of Paul's God, which resulted in some painful memories for them. Even the demons responded by saying, "We know who Jesus is, and we know who Paul is, but who are you?"

I believe no demon would leave a person directed by an unbeliever using God's name simply because that would make Satan's kingdom divided, which Jesus said could not stand. Even Satan knows better than that! I agree God's Word will not return void, but to cast out demons, raise the dead, and have that authority given by the Lord Jesus Himself, Judas must have had a real personal relationship with Jesus, then drifted into apostasy as Scripture says he would.

I still have peace and even some zap left. Take all of Scripture, every verse. If one person has never fallen away (apostasy, backslide, etc.), then why are there so many passages warning against this? Why do we need to pray for revival? Why, because we are not in the place where we should be! Revival is for the church to awaken from its slumber and sleep. While the church sleeps, people are lost for eternity without the Good News of the Gospel preached to them.

AWAKEN OH CHURCH! AWAKEN FOR THE TIME IS SOON!


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Kelby

 2009/8/4 21:34Profile





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