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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:


Quote:
But to me to cancel out ALL human choices, as in walking with God, time for Prayer and ect, giving time, money, to God as really we have no choice



Brother, this quote tells me you are not in clear understanding of the issue. The "free will" debate has NOTHING to do with daily choice and decisions. The age old issue is one of salvation and whether man plays a part in it. This comes from ones view of election. Those that believe they play a part in it believe they can play a part in getting out of it.




I expressed myself wrongly :-) i know the osas do believe in daily free choices, but how far can we chose on a daily bases to depart from God before we gone to far, if that is a possibility? that was sort of what i was wondering, or wondering how you who hold or believe this to be what scripture teaches, maybe a "fuzzy" question and can be answered differently, or maybe in theory we can drift very far by our daily choices, choosing not pray, not reading the word, not fellowship with believers etc, and maybe even worse choices... i do see and know all God will do to such a person, but if the choice of such persons are free, and we can chose, how much wrong can we chose and still be saved? or is our choices limited? does God only allow us to chose to a certain degree?

right now i am in the group that think i had a part in being saved, not that i did anything, not that i have any to boast about, not that there is any goodthing in me better then the worst of sinners, but just as any man, when God offered His son for me and i saw this, i accepted his offer and what he done for me.... i believe i could have rejected the offer, but i dident, I believe God worked in me, i believe everything that holds me up moment by moment is his grace, would that depart i would in a second be the worst filthy sinner alive, yet i also believe and see in scripture synergism, to what extent man is involved i can not say, but i see man is involved somehow.

so i guess i am in this group :-)

Quote:
Those that believe they play a part in it believe they can play a part in getting out of it.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/6 12:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If Judas was not a follower and an apostle, why was he replaced?



Judas was never "saved", per say. In one of the gospels (I cant find it right now) it mentions in a verse that Judas was stealing from the others while he was "following" Christ. He lived the life of an unrepentant man. Christ was preaching repentence... meanwhile Judas was stealing from Him.

Can't use Judas as an example.

Some have asked why Judas was replaced if he wasnt "believer". I hate to sound like a Calvinist, but Judas was in the position he was in as a disciple because God's plan from the very beginning was that Jesus would be betrayed... and the word "betrayed" means stabbed in the back by someone close to you. It had everything to do with prophecy and God's plan and will.

He was replaced because God chose to replace him. Not to mantion that the "12" had prophectic and historic signifigance. Read the Bible as a whole and you'll see the importance and symbolism of the number "12".

(Sorry if someone else pointed that out already... too many posts to read them all at this point)

Krispy

 2009/7/6 12:51









 Re:

I see people in this thread using human reasoning and arguments to figure out God's reasoning and will. Sometimes we just have to accept that a) we can not possibly understand the mind of God, b) scripture is the final authority, not our reasoning, c) God is God.

God put an unrepentent sinner amongst the twelve. God decided before the foundations of the earth to use betrayal as the means to lead to the death of His Son.

Period, end of discussion. You dont have to understand it or even agree with it for it to be true.

Krispy

 2009/7/6 12:58









 Re:

"(I cant find it right now) it mentions in a verse that Judas was stealing from the others while he was "following". Christ was preaching repentence... meanwhile Judas was stealing from Him." Krispy

I was wondering the same thing and found this in John 12:

"3Then Mary took about a pint[a] of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.[b]" 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a THEIF(my capitals); as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it."

It says at this point that, as a follower, Judas was a thief. He later proved his greed outwardly. Nonetheless, I find the Gospels talking of Judas' heart of sin more than any righteousness. The bible does not speak of any of the other disciple's around Jesus as having a heart like Judas. They were sinners but not malicious and premeditative like Judas as I sense scriptrue to imply about him. When Peter told Jesus he would never forsake Him, even to the grave, he spoke in naive but sincere foolishness. Judas seems to speak in a much more coniving and shallow manner.

 2009/7/6 13:31
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

It's been awhile since I've been around, but I just wanted to add something for everyone to think about.

Consider the following verse as it applies to Judas-
John 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'

Indeed, the Scripture was to be fulfilled and Judas was "foreknown" as the one who would do this. Also interesting, is the fact that Christ says he knows whom He has chosen, yet Judas was not among the chosen.

Judas was not "saved".

As for the main discussion about one losing their salvation, may I ask, did David? did Abraham? did Peter?

Rather, they trusted God's promise, and last I saw, it says that none who call on the name of the Lord will be ashamed, but rather saved.


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patrick heaviside

 2009/7/6 14:30Profile
brnagn
Member



Joined: 2009/7/6
Posts: 8


 Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

Not "my" answer or, "This is what I believe" or, "I think this is true".

The answer is no.

 2009/7/6 14:48Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Roaringlamb, I would also add John 6:70 where Jesus tells the Twelve that one of them is a devil.

 2009/7/6 14:56Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I hate to sound like a Calvinist, but Judas was in the position he was in as a disciple because God's plan from the very beginning was that Jesus would be betrayed... and the word "betrayed" means stabbed in the back by someone close to you. It had everything to do with prophecy and God's plan and will.



:-)

Doesn't sound like anything but Truth to me.


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TJ

 2009/7/6 17:18Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

if you understood faith you would not even ask this ? . you triffle with this issue , why ?. Brothertom is 100 % right you CAN loose your salvation . The earnest of our inheritance , the Holy Spirit , can be removed from us . Read ezekiel ch . 33 . Jesus also said that our names can be blotted out of the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE . the is a great falling away , to the Flood of sin on the earth today as in the days of noah , and even the ELECT are not exempt . LIFE in CHRIST is a probation , this is why HE is the Great Advocate , and God is the Judge and we have all been Guilty and will be Guilty outside of Christ ,,,, WE MUST OBEY GOD ,, JUST LIKE CHRIST OBEYED , if we are REALLY IN THE FAITH AND HAVE THE HOLY GHOST WE WILL OBEY , but if we turn from God and not WALK IN CHRIST [ BY OBEYING AS HE DID] and continue therein we will GO TO HELL .I know it is difficult to realize that HOLINESS is what is needed for those people who think Grace is something that it really is not . GRACE DOES NOT ENABLE US , grace shows us where we could, and should , OBEY GOD , and JESUS , as the son of man. was PERFECTLY OBEDIENT to God , FOR HIMSELF , JESUS DID NOT OBEY GOD FOR US. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR our own OBEDIENCE. it is NOT once saved always saved , Brothertom you are correct , we can loose our salvation , it is all up to us to endure to the end .. To all who think your salvation is secure without the OBEDIENCE THAT REAL FAITH [ COMMITMENT ] HAS . Remember the words OF JESUS CHRIST " HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED " what is the enduring that must be done by us and what is the end we have to endure too , to be a citizen of Heaven forever ? all who honestly enquire of these shall know that we can LOOSE OUR SALVATION . thank you . Clint


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Clint Demoret

 2009/7/6 18:39Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

hello bible 1985 , very good heart pouring out . This is exactly how you can talk to Jesus , He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother . He only asks for you to trust and take His manna for each day . Day by Day commitment , walking and not fainting is much greater tha soaring as the eagles and running and not being weary . the manna i speak of is , eating HIS flesh [ HIS WORDS ] and drinking HIS BLOOD [ HOLY SPIRIT ] . Jesus as our faithful true friend will show us which way it is that is ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS for us and this is the day by day , and moment by moment ,walking with, and abiding in JESUS [ the outshinning of GOD ]. I know that He knows your every question , . Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you into all truth , All Truth , IS JESUS HIMSELF .. God Bless , Love your post and what you shared of yourself . Being open and naked before Him with whom we have to do is great for us , because that Gives God something of ours to work with . . Take courage brother , and keep on knockin' and keep on askin', and Jesus will be opened too you . Clint .


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Clint Demoret

 2009/7/6 19:10Profile





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