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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re: Why all the warnings then?

If my salvation has nothing to do with what I do as far as obedience as you are suggesting, why does the Word of God have so many warnings and directions for the believer? Why preach the Gospel then at all if the elect (God's chosen will be saved whether the message is preached at all!) That is totally ridiculous! God, who is all powerful, has chosen to limit how He works, through the vessel of the church. If the church chooses to not preach the Gospel, people will be found without hearing the Gospel. "Go" is a command of God for the Great Commission. God will not send angels to do this or any other vessel except the church. We do have a responsibility and are held accountable for our actions. Why do you think revival is lacking in America? Is is because God does not want to bring a revival? Or is it the church (believers) not following after God completely with their whole heart? Read Revelation Chapters 2 and 3. Does the Churches of Asia receive warnings because God will not do what He says He will do? To warn believers their names could be erased from the Book of Life is very serious. A name can not be erased unless it is there to begin with. Why would God hold those believers accountable for actions that you say have nothing to do with our salvation? We do not work for our salvation, but James also warns that without works our faith is dead. God will enable us to live the Christian life and give us the supernatural ability to be true Christians, but we can also reject this and turn away from Him too. To say every time someone "falls away" or "that person was never saved to begin with" gets very old and does not support Scripture. If one person in the Bible fell away from God, your whole thought process is incorrect. Judas fell away from God, yet he was a follower of Jesus. Luke 9:1 says Jesus gave all his disciples (Judas too) authority over every demon and to cure diseases. Was Judas not a follower then? Yet he rejected and turned away from Jesus and received what he deserved according to Acts 1:25.


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Kelby

 2009/7/6 11:13Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

Here you go Whyme!

Luke 9:1 states that Jesus gave all his disciples (including Judas) authority over all devils and to cure diseases. God CAN NOT give authority over the enemy unless they are part of His army or following. Jesus said Himself that Satan's kingdom can not be divided, neither can God's. Jesus could have never given Judas that authority of God unless he was a follower. The simple fact that Judas was healing and doing mighty miracles is amazing. But to have authority over devils is a necessity for only followers of God. Remember the man who tried to cast out devils in the name of the God of Paul. He was beat up pretty bad? We have no record of Judas receiving such a beating!


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Kelby

 2009/7/6 11:19Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Yblek,

Don't you think it is at least plausible that Judas fits into the false prophet that Jesus warns of in Matthew 7:22? Judas propesied in His name and cast out demons yet he was a worker of iniquity ( the son of Perdition as a matter of fact ) and surely Jesus would have said of Him "depart from Me I NEVER knew you ). There must be something more in Scripture to prove Judas was a believer that the fact he cast out demons because Matthew 7:22 allows for even an unbeleiver to preach Christ and cast out demons.

 2009/7/6 11:22Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

Whyme

If Judas was not a follower and an apostle, why was he replaced?


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Kelby

 2009/7/6 11:23Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

Whyme

So you are saying that Jesus, the Son of God, would give power to a false prophet? That doesn't make sense. The Son of God would have never given that kind of authority! That would make God's kingdom divided! Reread Luke 9:1 carefully-He (Jesus) gave them authority and power, not some false prophet here, Jesus is the Son of God! False prophets have come and gone, but they have not been given the authority of God by God Himself!


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Kelby

 2009/7/6 11:25Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Yblek, I don't know why Judas was replaced other than the account in Acts. Second, in answer about casting out demons, I can only point to Matthew 7:22 for the proposition that demons may be cast out and yet someone is an unbeliever ( under what authority the demons came out, I do not suppose for the Scripture is silent on that ). God gave Balam's donkey the power to speak prophetically. I suppose this stands for the proposition that even men with evil hearts can be used to accomplish God's own purposes. From a practical standpoint, I'm sure there are men who came to salvation through the Word being preached by unsaved preachers. Thanks for the discussion.

 2009/7/6 11:39Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

Second, in answer about casting out demons, I can only point to Matthew 7:22 for the proposition that demons may be cast out and yet someone is an unbeliever ( under what authority the demons came out, I do not suppose for the Scripture is silent on that ).

Scripture does say in Luke 9:1-the authority and power was given by God Himself (Jesus). You must accept the fact that Judas was a true follower.


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Kelby

 2009/7/6 11:43Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Yblek,

My point about the authority for the casting out of demons was from Matthew 7 which is silent on that issue. Are you saying that God giving a power to someone expressly means they are a believer?

 2009/7/6 11:47Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
by loves principal it is possible to chose "no"



This is one of the presuppositions that subvert true doctrine. Human rationalization (what makes sense to us) does not make it biblically accurate.

Quote:
But to me to cancel out ALL human choices, as in walking with God, time for Prayer and ect, giving time, money, to God as really we have no choice



Brother, this quote tells me you are not in clear understanding of the issue. The "free will" debate has NOTHING to do with daily choice and decisions. The age old issue is one of salvation and whether man plays a part in it. This comes from ones view of election. Those that believe they play a part in it believe they can play a part in getting out of it.

The issue is not about your choice as much as that it is by the power of God through regeneration you made it. Therefore it is ALL of God and provides nothing to boast of.

He chose me
He will keep me
He enables me to persevere.

He removed my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh that loves and desires to worship Him. I love Him because He first loved me. It is ALL of HIM and not me.

My "will" was never violated. When I was dead in trespasses and sin I could not choose, I was dead. He brought me to life and I love Him for it. I choose to serve Him. It is all because of HIM.


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TJ

 2009/7/6 11:58Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

Whyme you said

My point about the authority for the casting out of demons was from Matthew 7 which is silent on that issue. Are you saying that God giving a power to someone expressly means they are a believer?

Here is my answer:

I believe this question answers itself. Be very careful when associating the power of God to Satan. Judas was given authority and power by Jesus (Luke 9:1). That is clear and should not be questioned. Judas' authority came from God. Secondly, I challenge you to find a person (not an animal) that God gave authority and power over demons who were NOT believers or followers. God uses yielded vessels, not forced pawns. Judas was yielded to the power of God and the authority of God.


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Kelby

 2009/7/6 12:02Profile





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