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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

This has been a struggle in my own life, my answer is i don't know. But i wonder if it is possible that some people might have false conversion experiences or a false born again experience where they our awakened but don't come to be truly born again. I don't know. I myself had an experience 5 and a half years ago where i believed on jesus for healing and then his presence came and cleaned out many bad things out of me, i felt like a new person who did not care about the world anymore but to serve god, but then 2 months later i fell into deep sexual sin which i did not stop for 3 years till i got married, the holy spirit has since then left me. Was it a spiritual high, an awakening or was it true salvation i don't know.I had an understanding of the things of god and that god was real and that the bible was true and that christ was real. But my problem was a lack of understanding , i didn't know the seriousness of sin and how holy god was so when i did sin i did it not knowing how bad it was. I did not uunderstand the cross of jesus, the holiness of god, the hatred of god towards sin, etc. Why I didn't get convicted until i found out 6 months later from my pastor it was wrong i don't know. But i see the problem could be false conversion and not someone coming to true salvation in christ biblically with repentance and faith in christ to be saved of their sins. That is not why i believed on christ, i looked at god as a helper in my trouble not as a saviour of my sins. C.j cutrone has a great sermon on this site about conversion, saying most people come to god but fall away because they see him as a deliverer but not as their God. But i think just like the controversy between spiritual gifts, calvinism and arminiasm and eternally security is very much not clear in the scriptures completely, that is why now i am trying to take a more respectable look at all possibilities, unless god truly reveals it to me.

 2009/7/6 0:31Profile









 Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

Hey,

I think this question is a devil-inspired question because their is so much confusion around it. Not to say that int3grity is being used of the devil or something like that. Not at all. I just think that this question is such a bad question. It's a legetimate one for sure but such a bad one.

We must beleive in a good God because without a good God, we're all going to die and go to hell. If there are any verses we must hold onto tightly, it's verses that speak like this: no man shall pluck you out of Jesus' hand.

When God meant for the gospel to be such a happy and wonderous thing, the devil has taken it and made it into such a gloomy thing so that unless you do this or that, you cannot be saved.

The devil has taken the Bible and given lots and lots of interpretations that only keep people away from knowing the beautiful passages in the Bible.

int3grity,

It's the nature of faith to look past questions like these and believe in an invisible Saviour who promises your everlasting welfare.

 2009/7/6 1:20
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

It is true one sin cast adam and eve out of the garden, it iss true one sin cast the devil out from heaven, this teaches us much and it is clear what way we should fear and hate sin and how we should avoid it to any cost, but i have seen for myself all sin is a choice between doing my will or gods, every time i do my will and Gods will is not that i sin, and many times maybe other men would not consider that choice sin. But it is, but i do not think God sits and erases my name from the book of life every time i sin, and fills it back in when i confess and repent.

As brother Paul wrote how many sins and how frequent must it be before we are in danger of damnation?

I dont know, but i can see the danger and possibility in scripture, maybe it not a question of quantity as in how many sins, but rather a question in our inward attitude, i think two believers can have the same defeated life and one go to heaven and one to hell, because their inward attitude towards sin.

But i am also sure as long as we allow God to humble us, as long as we humble us and come to him and are honest and true, confess and repent he will never cast us out, and honest we can all be in a moment, we can be honest in one second. God accepts honest people, for a long time i had the delusion that God accepted me when i was holy enough, when i stopped sinning certain amounts of sin ect. But he looks for honest people who can say with apostle paul, "in me dwells nothing good".

he does not want us to stay there in that state, but the healthy people dont need a doctor, and as long as i refuse to acknowledge my true condition God can do nothing for me. But once i am honest God can work, through faith i can receive everything from God.

And I believe God will show us our sin so we can deal with it, may not be the "great" sins adultery and so on, but the selfishness and prideful things in us, almost all sin have their root in these two sins that lay very deep in us, lust and looking with lust at a woman or to covet something is from a desire to satisfy me, it is selfishness. So the more we walk with the Lord and if we are honest he will "peal" away more and more from our selfishness. But if we are not honest we will not go forward.

And i think when we are stop being honest with ourselves and God we "move" towards this danger, stop confessing our true condition, stop being honest with God, stop cleansing us, our heart being hardened and if this condition is maintained i am fearful for such a state, i believe God will do many things to provoke us back to the right track, but still i think we ultimately can chose not to and persist in our own way. This is not an answer just my thoughts on this subject, I believe the possibility is there, how does it work, not sure.......


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/6 2:32Profile
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re: Hebrews 6

Hebrews 6

This chapter (edit: i.e. the interpretion of) has caused untold damage to Christian walks as it appears to contradict Romans 8.

We must remember that the writer is writing to [b]Jewish[/b] believers.

Hebrews 6:4-6

[i] 4For it is impossible for [b]those[/b] who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [/i]

Who are 'those'? I contend that these are unconverted Jews. The Bible is an Eastern book and it must not be lost sight of. The Jews had tasted of the heavenly gift and been partakers of the Holy Ghost. At Pentecost the Gospel was preached to the Jew first. (see Romans 1:16)

[i] 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[/i]

Moving down the chapter we read

Hebrews 6:9

[i]9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of [b]you[/b], and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. [/i]

Who are the 'you'? I contend that they are converted Jews who had been truly born again.

To pull these verses out and interpret them by reference to the modern Church is, I believe, error. The writer is not talking about born again believers in verses 4-6. The Bible does not contradict itself. Read the closing verses of Romans 8. There is eternal security.


In Christ

David


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David

 2009/7/6 8:11Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Regeneration is NOT accomplished by the will of man. As such, it cannot be lost by the will of man. Faith is an outcome of regeneration, not the cause of it. The book of 1JOhn was written to provide assurance to the believers of their position in God. Note how the writer balances the test on regeneration and not on the works of men (ie., believing, obedience and disobedience, charity ). We look for the these work/signs as evidence of being born again or regeneration, not the cause of it. John wrote this book primarily in his own words to assure the reader. Many very real Christians who hold to the position of "unsure salvation" are unknowingly working in the other direction. I say that with a broken heart because a great harm occurs among the brethern when their salvation in their minds becomes dependent on what they do and not on what Christ has accomplished for them and what the Holy Spirit has done in them.

 2009/7/6 8:52Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

david, if the book of hebrews does not apply to us in these times in the western culture, what parts of the book of hebrews does apply to us? and how can we make the right discernment wich parts apply and wich do not? and if we should make this dicernment, one would have to come to the conclusion the book of romans do not apply to us either since it was written for belivers in rom that probably had a large portion of jews by birth in the church also?

I find this reasoning to be very dangerous, and it would in the end leave us in western culture with little or even no scripture at all that apply to us. I do understand what you are saying that it was written for Jews in that time era, those where the authors object for writing, but it is also for us, the book of romans for example was not written for you either. It may have been different purposes for writing the letters, but does the reason exclude its validity for certain groups of believers? i dont believe that, not yet anyway.

Also i believe the same spiritual principle can be applied in hebrews to us, if we leave the faith , if we leave the true "being made justified by faith as a gift" to being made right with other means, after regeneration i do not think such a believer is eternal secure. Hebrew beliver or swedish or american.


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 2009/7/6 9:09Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

whyme, i do not wish to speak of the sequence of regeneration, but I have found it is all of God, but that does not exclude man are in some strange "co-operation" , God does not save any one who does not want to be saved, against his own will, i can not find this anywhere in scripture, we may argue God works in us to "will" to be saved, i think he does, but ultimately it is a question on love, love is always a choice. If a snatch a woman out of the streets and say i "elected" you as my wife, and due to my very great love i have forced you to be married to me and i will manipulate your will so in the end you will want to love me. Some have this idea of God, i think God works in us in a way that he reveals himself in such a way we want to come to Him, we want to believe in him. Same as a woman who want to marry me, but if she in the period of time choses to leave me, she can will to do that, i think the pictures of marriage in the bible of christ and the church and individual is there for a reason, to show in some way there is a union of love, of sacred vows, of commitment, and i do not think we have no say in if we want to remain or not.

Just thinking out loud, havent figured this one out completely, but the scale for me is weighing over on the man in some way co operating in all things, and yet it is all of God so no man can boast, but yet he does not force us to heaven if we would desire self more, the world more, it is true there are magnificent promises, i take them all literal, and feel great assurance he will finish what he started, but that is valid only as long as i do my part, and that part is all of him i recognize, it is he who gives ability, he who gives desire to abide in him, and yet if i should not, i believe i have an option to chose that


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/6 9:19Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3286
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

paulmcg1 wrote:
I think this question is a devil-inspired question because their is so much confusion around it. .



I think this is the best answer so for, or at least makes as much sense as any answer so for, Why? because were does confusion come from? not from God or the Word of God, so I am going with the above answer.


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Bill

 2009/7/6 9:43Profile
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

Hi Hmmhmm

Quote:
if the book of hebrews does not apply to us in these times in the western culture, what parts of the book of hebrews does apply to us?



I'm not saying that the book of Hebrews does not apply to us. It does, there is untold wealth of teaching in it. We need to be careful how we interpret it though, especially chapter 6. We could [b]apply[/b] verses 4-6 perhaps to those who make a profession of Christianity, but who've never been truly born again. To [b]interpret[/b] it as relating to those believers who are truly born again is, in my opinion, error.

This distinction between interpretation and application is important. There is only one correct interpretation of Scripture, but there are many applications.

Quote:
Also i believe the same spiritual principle can be applied in hebrews to us, if we leave the faith , if we leave the true "being made justified by faith as a gift" to being made right with other means, after regeneration i do not think such a believer is eternal secure.



Then you are saying that a person can be justified by faith and then at some point subsequently can be unjustified. If God justifies somebody is that person not then justified? Are they only potentially justified? Or justified for as long as they hold on to it? This would make our salvation dependent on us i.e. God's will subject to our will. This cannot be.




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David

 2009/7/6 9:56Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 532


 Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

The only point I'd like to share on this subject is to ask why people are always asking the "once saved, always saved?" question. I would venture to guess that in the majority of cases it is because they think that being a Christian is about earning salvation and a place in heaven by doing good works. And they find that living the Christian life is extremely hard if not impossible. So if it is true that once saved, you are always saved, they can give up the oppressive burden of trying to be faithful and holy. Bottom line is that they come to Christ in a purely self-centered way. They really only care about having their sins forgiven and getting into heaven, not on the Kingdom of God or the Body of Christ. They never came to the end of themselves and realized that as a sinner apart from Christ they are worth less than nothing. Never felt a desperate need for Jesus and cried out with heart felt conviction, "Have mercy on me a sinner". No, they came to Christ because someone told them all the benefits and how successful and happy they would be if they said the sinner's prayer. Well I have news for them, the Christian life isn't just hard to live, it is impossible. That is to say, it's impossible to live the Christian life in one's own strength, ability and willpower apart from the new birth and power of the Holy Spirit. Living the Christian life is about trusting, not trying. It's about our losing our self life, getting out of the way, and letting Jesus live in and through us. Abiding in the true vine and drawing life from Him. The key point is that the Christian life is about relationship first and foremost. Having and cultivating a close, intimate love relationship with the Lord, depending and relying on His guidance, leadership, strength and wisdom every moment of the day. When you have that, you don't ask the once saved, always saved question. The Holy Spirit bears witness that we are children of God.

 2009/7/6 9:57Profile





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