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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

I do clintstone and the deeper I Go into the the Love of God, which is Christ the Word, the more I am assured I cannot loose so great a salvation. It is God who has done it and will keep me and not me that keeps me. The deeper I go the more I love Him for what He has done, the impossibility I cannot do it myself and the more He is measuring me by the Son that He has birthed in me, He depends on Him to finish the work He has started. Praise God. It only makes we work harder to please Him, especially when I know He is doing the work to give me the desires of my heart, which I really did not even understand until I realized He is the Greatest desire we can have, that of loving Him, which sets me free.

Like James says, I truly can show my faith by the works being done, in, through and by Him that is in me, that is works coming forth from Christ as me, I in Him and Him in me. No boasting in these works for they are Him in me.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Many agree with me, sorry you cannot.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Colossians 1:29
Verse 29. Whereunto I also labour. Cmt. on 1Co 15:10.
Striving. Gr., agonizing, he taxed all his energies to accomplish this, as the wrestlers strove for the mastery in the Grecian games.

According to his working. Not by my own strength, but by the power which God alone can give. Cmt. on 1Co 15:10.

{c} "I also labour" 1Co 15:10

REMARKS.

Among the truths of practical importance taught by this chapter are the following:--

(1.) We should rejoice in the piety of others, Col 1:2-8. It should be to us a subject of unfeigned gratitude to God, when others are faithful to their high calling, and when they so live as to adorn the blessed gospel. In all their faith, and love, and joy, we should find in all occasions for thankfulness to God. We should not envy it, or be disposed to charge it to wrong motives, or suspect it of insincerity or hypocrisy; but should welcome every account of the zeal and faithfulness of those who bear the Christian name--no matter who the persons are, or with what denomination of Christians they may be connected. Especially is this true in relation to our friends, or to those for whose salvation we have laboured. The source of highest gratitude to a Christian, in relation to his friends, should be, that they act as becomes the friends of God; the purest joy that can swell the bosom of a minister of Christ, is produced by the evidence that they to whom he has ministered are advancing in knowledge and love.

(2.) We should earnestly pray that they who have been much favoured should be prospered more and more, Col 1:9-11.

(3.) It is a good time to pray for Christians when they are already prosperous, and are distinguished for zeal and love, Col 1:9-11. We have then encouragement to do it. We feel that our prayers will not be in vain. For a man that is doing well, we feel encouraged to pray that he may do still better; for a Christian who has true spiritual joy, we are encouraged to pray that he may have more joy; for one who is aiming to make advances in the knowledge of God, we are encouraged to pray that he may make still higher advances; and if, therefore, we wish others to pray for us, we should show them by our efforts that there is some encouragement for them to do it.

(4.) Let us cherish with suitable gratitude the remembrance of the goodness of God, who has translated us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear Son, Col 1:12-13. By nature we, like others, were under the power of darkness. In that kingdom of sin, and error, and misery, we were born and reared, until God, in great compassion, brought us out from it, and made us heirs of light. Now, if we are true Christians, we belong to a kingdom of holiness, and knowledge, and happiness. No words can express appropriately the goodness of God in thus making us heirs of light; and not an hour of our lives should pass without a thoughtful remembrance of his mercy.

(5.) In the affections of our hearts let the Saviour in all things have the pre-eminence, Col 1:15-18. He is the image of God; and when we think of him we see what God is--how holy, pure, benevolent. He is the firstborn of all things; the Son of God; exalted to the highest seat in the universe. When we look on the sun, moon, and stars, let us remember that he created them all. When we think of the angels, let us remember that they are the workmanship of his hands. When we look on the earth--the floods, the rivers, the hills, let us remember that all these were made by his power. The vast universe is still sustained by him. Its beautiful order and harmony are preserved by him; and all its movements axe under his control. So the church is under him. It is subject to his command; receives its laws from his lips, and is bound to do his will. Over all councils and synods--over all rule and authority in the church--Christ is the Head; and, whatever may be ordained by man, his will is to be obeyed. So, when we think of the resurrection, Christ is chief. He first rose to return to death no more; he rose as the pledge that his people should also rise. As Christ is thus head over all things, so let him be first in the affections of our hearts; as it is designed that in everything he shall have the pre-eminence, so let him have the pre-eminence in the affections of our souls. None should be loved by us as Christ is loved; and no friend, however dear, should be allowed to displace him from the supremacy in our affections.

(6.) In all our wants let us go to Christ, Col 1:19. "It pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell." We have not a want which he cannot supply; there is not a sorrow of our lives in which he cannot comfort us; not a temptation from which he cannot deliver us; not a pain which he cannot relieve, or enable us to bear. Every necessity of body or mind he can supply; and we never can go to him, in any circumstance of life in which we can possibly be placed, where we shall fad of consolation and support because Christ is not able to help us. True piety learns day by day to live more by simple dependence on the Saviour. As we advance in holiness we become more and more sensible of our weakness and insufficiency, and more and more dispose& to live "by the faith of the Son of God."

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/8/9 23:05Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

I have never ever got into the workings of christ in this thred ,i understand tyhe difference between me .and Christ , i understand the mortification process of the flesh , i understand the dying daily , i understand your reasoniong on it being all of Christ and none of you ! but there is still, the two becoming one. in the Spirit , the wife can play the whore and go TOTALLY away from Christ into everlasting damnation , even after once having tasted of the gift of God ,{ salvation , born again , new heart }our names can be blotted out after the lambs book of life . I just bet with your theological viewpoint of it being all Christ and none of His members within the body doing anything only the head does it , that you have never ever operated in any of the gifts of the Spirit . It is both that does the work of God WE and Christ both do it as we become one .. WE CAN TOTALLY DIVORCE JESUS CHRIST , it is not as easy to do as some think , but it can be done and this is totally sound biblical doctrine i am telling you


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Clint Demoret

 2009/8/13 17:22Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Even as God will buy back Israel, as Hosea was instructed by God to buy back Gomer from the slave block, and she wait for the coming of the Lord. The Lord has already come to those that are His bought and paid for by the Cross. He will not loose any that are given to Him.

Yes we have a legitimate Oneness with the Spirit of the Son of God, in whom, if we don't have we are none of His. Romans 8:10-14 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We will never loose our sonship to God, because of Christ, not because of anything man can do to attain salvation or loose salvation. It is all of God as I have said and scripture says many times.

Galatians 5:24-26 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If (fore as much as) we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

My spirit owner was defeated at the Cross, Satan no longer lives in me. Being Born again of Incorruptable Seed which is the Word Himself, Jesus Christ is now my Spirit and He will never leave me, I cannot be lost. It is Him that is preparing me as a chaste and perfect wife, and already married to Him, we await very impatiently our lamps trimmed and full of oil, for Him and the wedding supper The Father will flourish in The House Jesus Has prepared for us, in His Father's house.

Paul has it right;

2 Corinthians 10:1-6 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me and the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God.

2 Corinthians 10:17-18 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Christ is my Glory and my Husband and my Brother in that we both have the Same Father, by adoption into the Family of God by the Spirit of Christ that is alive and birthed in me.

This is the mystery that Israel did not comprehend, but will when Christ is setting on the pronounced throne of David the Lineal earthly throne, Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Christ is preparing each member in the Body to be The Bride; Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

He cannot present her to Himself if she can run away in adultry, she cannot, she will be bought back, even off the slave block.

Even Paul disparaged of his own salvation and what was his answer? "it is no longer I who sin", and who is he set free from this body of death? Praise God, Through Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/8/13 19:03Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2055


 Re: Saints Perseverance in Faith

THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

ARTICLE 1. Those whom God, according to His purpose, calls to the communion of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, He also delivers from the dominion and slavery of sin, though in this life He does not deliver them altogether form the body of sin and from the infirmities of the flesh.

ARTICLE 2. Hence spring forth the daily sins of infirmity, and blemishes cleave even to the best works of the saints. These are to them a perpetual reason to humiliate themselves before God and to flee for refuge to Christ crucified; to mortify the flesh more and more by the spirit of prayer and by holy exercises of piety; and to press forward to the goal of perfection, until at length, delivered from this body of death, they shall reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.

ARTICLE 3. By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and also because the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who are converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who, having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.

ARTICLE 4. Although the weakness of the flesh cannot prevail against the power of God, who confirms and preserves true believers in a state of grace, yet converts are not always so influenced and actuated by the Spirit of God as not in some particular instances sinfully to deviate from the guidance of divine grace, so as to be seduced by and to comply with the lusts of the flesh; they must, therefore, be constant in watching and prayer, that they may not be led into temptation. When these are great and heinous sins by the flesh, the world, and Satan, but sometimes by the righteous permission of God actually are drawn into these evils. This, the lamentable fall of David, Peter, and other saints described in Holy Scripture, demonstrates.

ARTICLE 5. By such enormous sins, however, they very highly offend God, incur a deadly guilt, grieve the Holy Spirit, interrupt the exercise of faith, very grievously wound their consciences, and sometimes for a while lose the sense of God's favor, until, when they change their course by serious repentance, the light of God's fatherly countenance again shines upon them.

ARTICLE 6. But God, who is rich in mercy, according to His unchangeable purpose of election, does not wholly withdraw the Holy Spirit from His own people even in their grievous falls; nor suffers them to proceed so far as t lose the grace of adoption and forfeit the state of justification, or to commit the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirt; nor does He permit them to be totally deserted, and to plunge themselves into everlasting destruction.

ARTICLE 7. For in the first place, in these falls He preserves in them the incorruptible seed of regeneration from perishing or being totally lost; and again, by His Word and Spirit He certainly and effectually renews them to repentance, to a sincere and godly sorrow for their sins, that they may seek and obtain remission in the blood of the Mediator, may again experience the favor of a reconciled God, through faith adore His mercies, and henceforward more diligently work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

ARTICLE 8. Thus it is not in consequence of their own merits or strength, but of God's free mercy, that they neither totally fall from faith and grace nor continue and perish finally in their backslidings; which, with respect to themselves is not only possible, but would undoubtedly happen; but with respect to God, it is utterly impossible, since His counsel cannot be changed nor His promise fail; neither can the call according to His purpose be revoked, nor the merit, intercession, and preservation of Christ be rendered ineffectual, nor the sealing of the Holy Spirit be frustrated or obliterated.

ARTICLE 9. Of this preservation of the elect to salvation and of their perseverance in the faith, true believers themselves may and do obtain assurance according to the measure of their faith, whereby they surely believe that they are and ever will continue true and living members of the Church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and life eternal.

ARTICLE 10. This assurance, however, is not produced by any peculiar revelation contrary to or independent of the Word of God, but springs from faith in God's promises, which He has most abundantly revealed in His Word for our comfort; from the testimony of the Holy Spirit, witnessing with our spirit that we are children and heirs of God (Rom 8:16); and lastly, from a serious and holy desire to preserve a good conscience and to perform good works. And if the elect of God were deprived of this solid comfort that they shall finally obtain the victory, and of this infallible pledge of eternal glory, they would be of all men the most miserable.

ARTICLE 11. The Scripture moreover testifies that believers in this life have to struggle with various carnal doubts, and that under grievous temptations they do not always feel this full assurance of faith and certainty of persevering. But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering.

ARTICLE 12. This certainty of perseverance, however, is so far from exciting in believers a spirit of pride, or of rendering them carnally secure, that on the contrary it is the real source of humility, filial reverence, true piety, patience in every tribulation, fervent prayers, constancy in suffering and in confessing the truth, and of solid rejoicing in God; so that the consideration of this benefit should serve as an incentive to the serious and constant practice of gratitude and good works, as appears from the testimonies of Scripture and the examples of the saints.

ARTICLE 13. Neither does renewed confidence of persevering produce licentiousness or a disregard of piety in those who are recovered from backsliding; but it renders them much more careful and solicitous to continue in the ways of the Lord, which He has ordained, that they who walk therein may keep the assurance of persevering; lest, on account of their abuse of His fatherly kindness, God should turn away His gracious countenance from them (to behold which is to the godly dearer than life, and the withdrawal of which is more bitter than death) and they in consequence thereof should fall into more grievous torments of conscience.

ARTICLE 14. And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments.

ARTICLE 15. The carnal mind is unable to comprehend this doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the certainty thereof, which God has most abundantly revealed in His Word, for the glory of His Name and the consolation of pious souls, and which He impresses upon the hearts of the believers. Satan abhors it, the world ridicules it, the ignorant and hypocritical abuse it, and the heretics oppose it. But the bride of Christ has always most tenderly loved and constantly defended it as an inestimable treasure; and God, against whom neither counsel nor strength can prevail, will dispose her so to continue to the end. Now to this one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen. (The Canons of Dort - The Synod of Dordrecht
November 13,1618 — May 9, 1619)


 2009/8/13 21:38Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2055


 Re: Rejection/Refutation of Errors

REJECTION OF ERRORS

The true doctrine having been explained [previous post],

the Synod rejects the errors of those:

1. Who teach: That the perseverance of the true believers is not a fruit of election, or a gift of God gained by the death of Christ, but a condition of the new covenant which (as they declare) man before his decisive election and justification must fulfil through his free will.

For the Holy Scripture testifies that this follows out of election, and is given the elect in virtue of the death, the resurrection, and the intercession of Christ: "What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened (Rom 11:7)." Likewise: "He who did not spare His own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:32-35)?"

2. Who teach: That God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient powers to persevere, and is ever ready to preserve these in him if he will do his duty; but that, though all though which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith are made us of, even then it ever depends on the pleasure of the will whether it will persevere or not.

For this idea contains outspoken Pelagianism, and while it would make men free, it make them robbers of God's honor, contrary to the prevailing agreement of the evangelical doctrine, which takes from man all cause of boasting, and ascribes all the praise for this favor to the grace of God alone; and contrary to the apostle, who declares that it is God, "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:8)."

3. Who teach: That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever.

For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued preservation by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the apostle Paul: "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him (Rom 5:8-9)." And contrary to the apostle John: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9)." And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (John 10:28-29)."

4. Who teach: That true believers and regenerate can sin the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirit.

Since the same apostle John, after having spoken in the fifth chapter of his first epistle, vs. 16 and 17, of those who sin unto death and having forbidden to pray for them, immediately adds to this in vs. 18: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin (meaning a sin of that character); the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18)."

5. Who teach: That without a special revelation we can have no certainty of future perseverance in this life.

For by this doctrine the sure comfort of the true believers is taken away in this life, and the doubts of the papist are again introduced into the Church, while the Holy Scriptures constantly deduce this assurance, not from a special and extraordinary revelation, but from the marks proper to the children of God and from the very constant promises of God. So especially the apostle Paul: "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:39)." And John declares: "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24)."

6. Who teach: That the doctrine of the certainty of perseverance and of salvation from its own character and nature is a cause of indolence and is injurious to godliness, good morals, prayers, and other holy exercises, but that on the contrary it is praiseworthy to doubt.

For these show that they do not know the power of divine grace and the working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And they contradict the apostle John, who teaches that opposite with express words in his first epistle: "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure (1 John 3:2-3)." Furthermore, these are contradicted by the example of the saints, both of the Old and the New Testament, who though they were assured of their perseverance and salvation, were nevertheless constant in prayers and other exercises of godliness.

7. Who teach: That the faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except only in duration.

For Christ Himself, in Matt 13:20, Luke 8:13, and in other places, evidently notes, beside this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers, when He declares that the former receive the seed on stony ground, but the latter in the good ground or heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; that the former are without fruit, but that the latter bring forth their fruit in various measure, with constancy and steadfastness.

8. Who teach: That it is not absurd that one having lost his first regeneration is again and even often born anew.

For these deny by this doctrine the incorruptibleness of the seed of God, whereby we are born again; contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet 1:23)."

9. Who teach: That Christ has in no place prayed that believers should infallibly continue in faith.

For the contradict Christ Himself, who says: "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32)", and the evangelist John, who declares that Christ has not prayed for the apostles only, but also for those who through their word would believe: "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name," and "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one (John 17:11, 15, 20)."

 2009/8/13 21:46Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

{This post has been edited and deleted. I found as I read further that my points were already stated.}

 2009/8/13 23:13Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
It is sad to think of how many people believe that the only thing keeping them safely in their Father's Almighty hand is themselves.



It is sad to think how many use bad analogies and incorrect information to put down other Christians.

I haven't invested much thought in an illustration, but if you hold a baby chick in your hand, no one would say that the chick is keeping itself safe. You are. However, if the chick is determined and persistent enough, it can get away.

Rather than castigate and insult other believers, please realize some of us hold a simple and childlike understanding of being held in the Father's hand.

 2009/8/13 23:27Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

By man's hands, surly the chick might get away.
By God's hand, surly not.

In Christ by the Father's Hand.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/8/14 0:31Profile









 Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

Quote:
CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?



Of course. See...if you guys would have never left the church, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 2009/8/24 1:28
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3411
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Catholic

Quote:
Catholic wrote:
Quote:
CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?



Of course. See...if you guys would have never left the church, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.


Oh, you definitely have a divisive spirit.

[edit: Like heydave pointed out that Jesus said in the other thread: "by your fruit you shall know them."

If you really wanted to come in here and be a teacher of the catholic religion, you would have came in another spirit.


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Lisa

 2009/8/24 6:28Profile





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