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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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passerby
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 640


 Re:

That no one of the 'true believers' will be lost had been declared by our Jesus Christ Himself:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's and.

The final salvation of the saints is certain, it shall happen, it had been predicted, declared, and sealed by the promises of God. However, it will not happen out of nothing without any necessities, our salvation is sum of the events from the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, to our regeneration, our sanctification, and perseverance in faith, righteousnes, and obedience to the end.

Our salvation is certain, but it is only certain upon the condition that our perseverance to the end is certain, nowhere in the bible that it is spoken otherwise.


"...the revelation that our salvation is certain does not make this foreknowledge the means in which our salvation is secured. It is dependent on the perseverance of the saint in the way of righteousness... and knowing this certainty cannot be a reason for not obeying, or provide encouragement to live in sin. Therefore, the knowledge of the certainty of our salvation cannot provide a ground for us to hope to receive immunity while we live a life of sin.

The doctrine of perseverance means that God’s grace and Spirit will preserve all who are true saints of God through faith, in the sense that, after regeneration, obedience is their rule, and disobedience is only the exception; and that if they do this they will certainly be saved with an everlasting salvation..."_ Charles G. Finney


But how do we know that we will persevere to the end, how much faith do we need_ like many of you I do not know really how much faith is needed, I just know that I will persevere because God foresaw it, God's power, grace, and mercy is behind it. He said it and it shall be done, there is no reason for me to doubt His words.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and fain in your minds.

Following Christ is a tough one to pursue, it is in fact impossible for men, yet God assures us that our labors will not be in vain because His grace and mercy will follow us all the days of our lives. Our salvation although conditional is
absolutely certain because God keeps us. The Lord foreknows us, He saw us even before the foundation of this world, He knew our weaknesses, He remembers that we are made from dust:


Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Psa 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

He foreknows our falls, and like the apostle Peter He prays for us:

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

He knows our propensity to sin to which He said:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Quote:
If it is not possible to lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings in the New Testament given both to the disciples and to the church?



Being finite moral agents there is a natural possibility that we will not obey, that we will not endure to the end, so that we need to be warned, strongly warned. As said, our salvation is a sum of events, those warnings are part of the events designed by God to keeps us from falling. Our savation is contigent upon our perseverance to the end, nowhere in the bible
that it is written nor implied that it is just fine for us to sin or live wantonly. If we will do that we shall surely fall from grace. Take heed, be warned.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Natural possibility, that is, but let us never take it lightly.

Now there are controversial concepts regarding the security of the believers:

1. After regeneration, we will not fall, we will not go astray , it is absolutely against our new nature. However our Lord said this:

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Even after regeneration, left on our own, we will fall, if we will not diligently abide in Christ.

..."The same is true of their perseverance in holiness, in every situation, in every act. The saints persevere, not because of some constitutional change, but because of the abiding and indwelling influence of the Holy Spirit. Free grace is always in advance of free will; that is, the will never obeys in any instance, not even for one moment, except as the
will is persuaded to obey just like it did the first time conversion took place.

The Holy Spirit continues the work it began by continuing to work in the saints to will and to do of His good pleasure. Saints do not begin in the Spirit, and then become perfect through the flesh. There is nothing holy that we can do that cannot be attributed to the grace and to the
influence of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is just as important after conversion as it is during conversion.

All who are ever saved, or ever will be saved, are saved by and through free grace prevailing over free will, that is, by free grace securing the voluntary cooperation of free will."_Charles G. Finney

2. There is no possibility for us to fall because once we are introduced into the divine family there is no way that our sonhsip can be revoked no matter what we do.

The sonship analogy is just but an analogy, some other things or concepts may not apply. In the above verses we are also analogous to a branch which can get burned in the end.

3. There is no possibility of fall because we have believed we have been justified, it was a done deal as long as we certainly know that we have made the sinners prayer and we can point to that date we are immune from falling, no matter what we do.

This is unbiblical, this is believing in vain.

4. No one can be certain of one's salvation, because we cannot really know our future actions, we know that only those who will peresevere to the end, the same shall be saved, but how do we now that we will indeed persevere in the future...

God said that we will, by His Spirit, grace and mercy.

5. There is the possibility of falling because of warnings.

As said it is always a natural possibility, but For a natural possibility to happen, a series of events or a cause is needed for it to occur, take for example, it is naturally possible for us to die if we will jump from a great height, but we will not die because we are not going to jump, not unless we are insane.

The salvation of the saints is certain, it was already foreknown and clearly foretold, but the foreknowledge that our salvation is certain is not the means in which we shall be be saved, nor it negates the natural possibillity that we may fall. That we must be born again and persevere in faith and obedience to the end are essential events in God's design to brings us into His kingdom.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 2009/7/23 3:26Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

passerby wrote:

Quote:

"""The sonship analogy is just but an analogy, some other things or concepts may not apply. In the above verses we are also analogous to a branch which can get burned in the end."""

Then Jesus was just pulling Nicodemus' leg.


John 3:1-8 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Also, Peter did not know what he was talking about.

1 Peter 1:18-25 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Seed: This is parental seed. God our Father, whom Jesus specifically stated, Pray this way, "Our Father".

Word: The Logos of God: Jesus Christ, by His Seed are we Born Again.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Translators should have capitalized The W in Word in 1 Peter 1:23 also.

So who are we born again by? By the Incorruptable Seed of the Father. Who is the Word and the Incorruptable Seed? Jesus Christ, of whom if we don't have, we are none of His.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul stated this position over 200 times in the epistles he wrote. "In Christ, and Christ in you"
He calls it "The mystery" not born again, but this is what Paul means.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is surly the fulfillment of God's plan before the foundation of the world.

The fulness of Christ in you the hope of glory is, "the fulness of Him that filleth all in all."

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us ((((((in Him before the foundation of the world,)))))) that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Galatians 4:5-7 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Born again of Water and Spirit. The Water of Life and the Spirit of Christ birthed in you.

In Christ; a living, breathing, by the Son in me, by His Faith in me, a son of God: Phillip

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

This truly is the "Hope of Glory", CHRIST IN YOU.

Again, In Christ: PHillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/7/23 22:29Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

so phillip you are a once saved always saved adherent .. your dogmatic analogies are not the whole truth and therefore do not add up to the whole . keep on battling with the bible on this one , let the bible convince you and you will give up the notion of once saved always saved . We can not be plucked out of Gods hand by any man but we can be removed from and lose the earnest of our inheritance , you cannot ignore hebrews chapter 5


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Clint Demoret

 2009/7/24 21:23Profile
passerby
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 640


 Re:

Re:

Quote:
The sonship analogy is just but an analogy, some other things or concepts may not apply. In the above verses we are also analogous to a branch which can get burned in the end.



Hello Phillip, I can see and appreciate your point, this statement seems to undermine our sonship in Christ, but I don't really mean that.

There are different theological views on the extent of the meaning of our sonship in the divine family which I do not want to touch in this thread, but I may have really gone astray into challenging some theological position about our sonship

Our 'sonship' in Christ is real, but its implications is confined within a boundary and would not negate the 'natural possibility' that we may fall from grace if we will not heed the words of our Lord.

It is an exaggeration to say that our salvation is absolutely certain based on this relationship alone, that no matter what we do, we are never in danger of apostasy, falling, and be lost. This is what I really want to convey, that this view is an overstatement.

Please feel free to critique my post, I really hope that we can arrive into a faithful conclusion and description of the matter regarding our eternal security.

 2009/7/24 22:09Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1560
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

Itstoo bad none of you really no what is true, scripture speaks of both but the ones that our more obvious our the ones that speak of our eternal life to neverbe taken away, the otherside it is notalways clear and can be taken way out of context and we all know that. No one really knows. But the ones who believe we can lose our salvation our surely trusting in what we have to do to obey the holy spirit and our obedience in christ, while the other believes Christ will do it all even if we fall and slip up, that no matterwhat faith, obedience is all a work of theholy spirit and notus, you can't just have faith unless the father grants you the grace to believe. ourworks our dependent on the holy spirit working in us.Its either God or us.


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John Beechy

 2009/7/25 0:06Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

the Kingdom of God is AS A MARRAIGE , the two become ONE . this oneness is not between Just Jesus and God alone . this oneness is between the whole body of Christ and God . we have everything to do with our obedience .The Holy Spirit does not make us obedient . Love is not pushy , Love does not seek its own .
God is love . We are not surely trusting in works to be saved . we work, because, we believe that it is best to be about our fathers business . It is not ,to bad that none of us know the truth , some of us do know the truth . Love proves all things .It is not either God , or us . it us becoming one in God [love]. God saves our souls[the wife]. He does not get rid of the wife , so that , only the Husband [jesus] is working . husband and wife , become one , and work together .


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Clint Demoret

 2009/7/25 18:20Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,

(that is if we think we do anything, any works, or don't do any works, circumcision is works, uncircumcision, no works of the flesh, we are sadly mistaken and headed for some awful words of condemnation, which is not for the believer, it is all Christs works through us and us in love and true knowledge by the Holy Spirit showing these works of Christ to the world, not by what we do or don't do, but by what Christ has done, no works lest any man should boast, but the works of Christ in us, of this is works we do, to show our faith which is Christ.)

These are awful words, that the loose your salvation people have to contend with.

Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, (works)that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (fulfill the whole law) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; (works) ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (The only works a Christian has are the works of Faith that has been given us by the Christ that is in us. My works will show you my faith, that faith being the Christ in us being our total freedom and nothing added.) which cannot be lost.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision (works)availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; (No works but trust)but faith which worketh by love. (His works in us)

I hate the works salvation religion that looses salvation. I also hate the faith religion that says they don't have to do anything. They are both out of the Grace that God intends in Christ Jesus that is in us.

Lets keep our minds off of works or no works and keep them on Christ, for He is our only salvation and our only hope, the only One the Father trust to make the believer whole. So it is not works or no works that keeps us in Christ who has set us free. But the birthing of the Son of God in the son's of God, which makes us whole and will continue to make us whole until we sit with Christ on David's throne, judging the nation of the physical earth, and Israel doing the evangelizing of the whole world with the 144,000 who are sealed for this purpose.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/7/26 2:29Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

phillip , you really seem adamant about how terrible you think some one who does see that salvation can be lost , by someone who really has been born again . your arguments cannot prove your belief , that salvation cannot be lost . The simple truth is salvation can be lost . read hebrews 6:1-6 then all the way to hebrews 10:26-31 , you need to really get a grasp of the truth we need to know that we are free to choose life or death , even after we have tasted of the Holy Ghost , we are able to do terribly and push the Holy Ghost out of our lives and thereby lose our earnest money of our inheritance [ down payment of our final salvation ] which is the Holy Spirit . We can after tasting of the Holy Spirit lose the holy Spirit and therefore lose salvation . it is not easy to do ,but it can be done . this is biblical . this is not my own idea .


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Clint Demoret

 2009/7/27 21:35Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Clintstone,

1 Peter 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

If we that believe have no boasting in ourselves for the Grace that has come to the elect of God, then how can we boast that it is now our works that will make Grace of the effect of keeping the salvation given us by this perfect Grace. It does not matter what I do, for I can do nothing for my salvation, it is all up to God and His Grace through Faith and "that not of yourselves", it is the gift of God.

I have waited a long time to answer your accusations, and yes I am adamant about not losing so great a salvation that I had nothing to do with in the first place, it is all of God and the Cross of Christ.

Who revealed to Peter that "you are the Christ the Son of God? Jesus said it was not of man, but His Father in Heaven. To this day it still stands, whosoever believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, will be saved. The revelation is still of God and those given to Christ as His body the Church, none will be lost, we are His and we cannot escape so great a salvation, even unto those who believe on His name.

Israel as a nation possessed an earthly inheritance, the promised land and with it corresponding earthly blessings. But now as the elect, according to the foreknowledge of the Father, they have a better inheritance. Earthly things are corruptible; the heavenly inheritance is incorruptible. Earthly things are defiled, pollution clings to the fairest and choicest; the coming inheritance is undefiled, nor can it ever be polluted by sin and its curse, it is eternally pure. Here on earth everything is fading, every beautiful flower has its roots in a grave, all is passing and fading away; but that inheritance which we shall receive is never-fading, it is always fresh and beautiful. And this inheritance is "preserved in heaven for you"; it is more than reserved, as we have it in our Bibles. It is with Him in the glory and He preserves it for His saints, so that the cruel hand of Satan cannot touch it nor take it away from man. And while that inheritance is preserved by the never-failing Lord in glory, saints are kept for the inheritance by the power of God through faith. Here is the real perseverance of the saints; the power to persevere and to keep is not in us but in God. That inheritance is ready to be revealed in the last times, that is when the Lord comes for His saints.

It is God who keeps, not of me or works lest any man should boast. Loosing salvation is just another form of man's works to attain salvation or loose it. Israel tried for 4000 years and could not attain it and Christ still had to come to save any, and keep a remnant for God the Father that all the promises could be given to a people that God chose as Israel, and now through Christ have so much greater salvation for those that are now Christians, neither Jew or Gentile.
Jew, earthly and Gentile, heavenly.

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2009/8/3 23:55Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

keep on going further into the living word of God and you will see that your theological assumptioms have holes , fill the holes with truth and you will see that salvation CAN BE LOST . Keep leaning to your own understanding and you may never see it till you are in heaven and see that people who were saved are not thier because they turned back .. you misunderstand the workings of, and the definition of the heart and soul of man .


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/8/9 22:08Profile





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