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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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alan4jc
Member



Joined: 2007/8/15
Posts: 190
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Can a "Born Again Christian" lose their salvation and end up in Hell?


Nope!!


_________________
Alan Taylor

 2009/7/20 16:47Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

This thread is running out of steam fast. The postings have become flippant and insincere and references to the devil in a jocular light are now beginning to surface. Brothers and sisters, we must never make light of Satan and hell. We must never joke about these things under any circumstances.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/20 16:58Profile









 Re: saved is holy....and bearing that fruit. It is not an idea.

If Jesus spoke of NOT blotting someones name out of the Book of Life, then it is perfectly logical to me that a person's name must be in that Book to begin with. It is obviously so.



What is the very epitome of being a Christian; SAVED? It is that God knows it, and has recorded it. He declares that you have been covered by the blood of Jesus, and forgiven. He has written it in a book, the bible says. If God then chooses to blot it out, as it is written, then are you still saved? I think that is the point! You will NOT be, so repent.





I realize that there are many, many Calvinists that believe once saved always saved, and have many theological fortresses built up to defend them, and I firmly believe that most are saved, and will be, but regardless of what man believes, we have what God knows, and He declares as Truth. As I see it, there are many scriptures, other than this more obvious one, that clearly state that we must endure, and be holy, to see God. I believe that this applies to Christians and unbelievers alike.


I personally know several people, that I could attest to as possessing the Holy Spirit who have now denied Christ, and have walked away into dark beliefs and perversions. They have fell away. If the apple is in the tree, and falls to the ground, it fell away. You cannot say that it was never a fruit of the tree, can you?



I have learned that this issue is difficult to converse, as many see it as an attack on their faith when disputed, but I must say, that Christian's, who have the Holy Spirit in them have become Apostate.


Acts 20: please read this discourse to the Ephesian elders and derive your own thoughts; "Grievous wolves arising from, "among yourselves", to draw away disciples after them."


These were men that Paul and others had ordained in the midst of revival, that had obviously met the Standards of the Shepherds outlined in the Pastoral letters. Could you say that they were never saved? Would you say that his classification of WOLF was just a slur used by Paul, or do you think that he meant that they had become evil, a son of the devil, and a deceiver.



"He that endures to the END, the same shall be saved!".....Jesus


We must overcome, and bear holy fruit to God, by living a life of bearing our cross, and learning to love God, and people. This is fruit, and "By their fruits, You Shall Know Them." That's us. The other end of this, is those, alas, who have fell away. Remember the parable of the SEED.

 2009/7/20 19:52
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3286
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
This thread is running out of steam fast. The postings have become flippant and insincere and references to the devil in a jocular light are now beginning to surface. Brothers and sisters, we must never make light of Satan and hell. We must never joke about these things under any circumstances.



Paul, if this was your response to my post which there has only been one other one since mine, I gather it was, I was no way trying to make light of anything. I have heard "MANY" Pastors say the same thing about the body feuding how satan is rejoicing,the idea behind my post was more to the thoughts of what Natan4Jesus wrote below in an earlier post, not at all being flippant and insincere, quite the contrary. We as Christians sometimes don't like the big picture, we sometimes enjoy tunnel vision. My post was to have folks look at the big picture, and sure not to give satan any joy or credit or anything period.


Quote:

Natan4Jesus wrote:
he's absolutely gleeful, 'divert them and divide them', thats his food, his weapon, if one truly dies to self and becomes alive in Christ, such musings and meanderings of the mind are exposed to be the luxury of the 'man with one talent'.


_________________
Bill

 2009/7/20 21:29Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How strong is the word, "never"?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do we really believe this?

Or are we just here to believe in the Law and keep His commandments? Even if we could, should, will or does keep the Law perfect, the great revelation that Jesus Christ is the total fulfillment and perfect representative of all the Law, He still learned obedience by the things He suffered. Does God want obedience or does God want Love? Christ is the epitome of Love. So to keep the Law is what Paul said he did, without waver. So why did Paul say all his works were as dung in the rubbish pile. We are always learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Man cannot save himself no matter what he does, it still take God to allow even Enoch in to His Kingdom, and God still has to take him.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Again; Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those that believe they can loose their salvation don't believe this.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Are we not a kingdom of priests? Nothing we do can ever take away our sins or sin in its entirety. Only Christ and His sacrifice and His Blood can take away our sin and the sin of the world.

In Christ, which we that are His are most certainly born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

We cannot loose this by what we do, we can only believe that God's Word is true and when He says, "Never", that is what He means. "Believest thou this".

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

We are called and we are elected and it is sure in Christ Jesus our Life and our God and Savior.

Again; Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Find all the scripture you want to invalidate these words, but they still stand and There is a difference in those that are not in Christ, but work oh so hard to keep the Law so they can be saved and righteous before God by who they are, but have no calling or election, that clearly proveing who He is and His work in us. This is the only thing we can pray for, to those that are not saved, that they might be called and elected and their life might be overwhelmed and given new life, that life being In Christ, the only life that will enter the kingdom of God in Christ Jesus be in them, where He is preparing a place of us.

Elected and sure of His Calling by the Christ that is in me and by the Comfort of the Holy Spirit revealing this truth and the Comfort of the Christ life that is in me reveling Himself as He promised, "I will come again and draw you unto Myself".

Never to be comfortless again: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/7/21 22:02Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
How strong is the word, "never"?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do we really believe this?

Or are we just here to believe in the Law and keep His commandments? Even if we could, should, will or does keep the Law perfect, the great revelation that Jesus Christ is the total fulfillment and perfect representative of all the Law, He still learned obedience by the things He suffered. Does God want obedience or does God want Love? Christ is the epitome of Love. So to keep the Law is what Paul said he did, without waver. So why did Paul say all his works were as dung in the rubbish pile. We are always learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Man cannot save himself no matter what he does, it still take God to allow even Enoch in to His Kingdom, and God still has to take him.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Again; Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those that believe they can loose their salvation don't believe this.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Are we not a kingdom of priests? Nothing we do can ever take away our sins or sin in its entirety. Only Christ and His sacrifice and His Blood can take away our sin and the sin of the world.

In Christ, which we that are His are most certainly born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

We cannot loose this by what we do, we can only believe that God's Word is true and when He says, "Never", that is what He means. "Believest thou this".

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

We are called and we are elected and it is sure in Christ Jesus our Life and our God and Savior.

Again; Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Find all the scripture you want to invalidate these words, but they still stand and There is a difference in those that are not in Christ, but work oh so hard to keep the Law so they can be saved and righteous before God by who they are, but have no calling or election, that clearly proveing who He is and His work in us. This is the only thing we can pray for, to those that are not saved, that they might be called and elected and their life might be overwhelmed and given new life, that life being In Christ, the only life that will enter the kingdom of God in Christ Jesus be in them, where He is preparing a place of us.

Elected and sure of His Calling by the Christ that is in me and by the Comfort of the Holy Spirit revealing this truth and the Comfort of the Christ life that is in me reveling Himself as He promised, "I will come again and draw you unto Myself".

Never to be comfortless again: Phillip



Christinyou,

[b]I completely agree with your basic premise 100%.[/b]

However, there is a problem, because one verse which you quoted in your defense,
Quote:
[b]7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/b]


Is actually not saying what you think it is saying...

Here is the context:
Quote:
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,



As you see, this is [i]not a good thing[/i] and is most likely speaking of apostates, so-called "believers."

So, perhaps a better verse in your defense may be from Ephesians 3:8, where Paul speaks of himself and says, "8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints,"

What a statement!

Follow that up with Philippians 3:12,
"12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Let us never be content with any level of attainment in holiness. Let us always be crying out like John the Baptist [b]"30 He must increase, but I must decrease."[/b]

This is a sure way to never fall into self righteousness!

And let's look to Jesus.

"2 [b]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."[/b]


_________________
Adam

 2009/7/22 0:36Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation ? hebrews asks this ? escape what ? what is the writter of hebrews saying we will most assuredly not escape if we " neglect so great a salvation ? the only way to make the Cross of Christ effectual is by faith and faith must be worked out with fear and trembling or it can be lost . why must you osas adherents neglect ,the absolute truth that salvation can be lost? . it is hard to loose ,but it can be . one way it can be lost is found in hebrews ch.5


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/7/22 17:38Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

Amen ! HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END !!shall be saved . God can , and does remove the earnest of our inheritance from some of us . exspecially when we sell it like esau did . the earnest , of our inheritance is the Holy Spirit .


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/7/22 17:47Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures
2 Timothy 3:7
Never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (mêdepote eis epignôsin alêtheias elthein dunamena). Pathetic picture of these hypnotized women without intellectual power to cut through the fog of words and, though always learning scraps of things, they never come into the full knowledge (epignôsin) of the truth in Christ. And yet they even pride themselves on belonging to the intelligentsia! Amen. end;



Men also are under the same teachers and fall short as Paul is warning these that are in verse 7. I can never attain righteousness and so it is not up to me to loose righteousness. I can never attain salvation so it is not up to me to loose it. I can only attain righteousness by the Christ that is in me. Like Paul screams from his heart, "who will deliver from this body of death"?
Peter also, undyingly showing this body of flesh cannot attain to any righteousness, it is only by the Christ in us that we attain this righteousness, so no matter how hard I try, I cannot reach the Holiness of God in this body of flesh.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Not me. Not I. Not, not. If I cannot attain salvation by my own will or work or faith, how can I be set free?

Romans 7:20-25 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

My Flesh wars all the time with the Spirit that is in me, that is the Spirit of Christ revealed by the Holy Spirit Teacher Comforter. God has made me righteous in Christ, not by what I do or don't do.

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I was a base thing of the world, I was despised and I was not. I cannot glory in any of what I was as Paul plainly states. All dung. But God in His Grace has made me wise, righteous, sanctified, and redeemed. That according as it is written, so I can glory only in Him who has set me free from this body of death. God will never let me die again for I am alive in Christ, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". If I cannot attain it, I cannot loose it, for it is not up to me, but the Christ in me. That is why I try all the harder to be righteous, wise, sanctified and redeemed in Christ. The harder I try in Christ the more fruit will be attained, for it is His Fruit coming forth through me, "not by my works lest any man should boast", But How?

2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

If you can loose it then you must be able to attain it by your works lest works are nothing.

By His Life I live and I will live forever in His choosing and perfection not by any works, but by His works which He has already done on the Cross.

Galatians 2:18-21 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

By which I can loose my own salvation. But in Christ;

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul's final Gospel, the fulfillment of The Word of God, clearly stated this mystery of Christ in each of us, that are birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (final gospel)Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working? Christ in you and me: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/7/22 23:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""Amen ! HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END !!shall be saved """

Wonderful scripture:

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Why do they hate us?

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Who is the only one that has endured to the end?
"It is finished".

He is the enduring One that is in me and by His life in me I will endure to the end. Praise God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/7/22 23:50Profile





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