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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 Peter 3:19

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
As far as Christ "descending" to the Father- no, He 'ascended' up far above all Heavens that He might fulfill all things. Whether His position in regards to the Father is any different I would say no- because He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and all that He has and is is eternal and immutable.


Hi Robert
I think it was Mark's fingers that got mixed up rather that his theology.

I don't think His relationship was altered but in a sense He was altered. He sits on the throne now as the 'man' Christ Jesus; having incorporated humanity into deity. Although in an eternal perspective He is slain from the foundation of the earth yet in linear time some events followed others. The throne has now become the throne of God and of the Lamb. He returned to His rightful place as an old-time prince would have returned to his father's side having gained kingdoms. In Ps 24 He returns as the conquering hero. There is now within the Godhead that which has passed through human-ness and separation. There is a sense in which God Himself has changed, not in His character or attributes but in His experience. And as experience changes 'who we are'... in that sense alone some things have changed.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/9 19:00Profile
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 Re:

Philologos:

Is this essentially what you are saying?

"The Lord was put to death in the body and made alive in the Spirit. After his death, he went by the Spirit to Hades to proclaim the victory of God's plan to those fallen angels who were judged and imprisoned by God during the days of Noah. Then the Lord was resurrected and he ascended to the right hand of God in heaven, thereby given all powers and authority in heaven and on earth."


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Sam

 2004/9/14 11:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re:

Sam
yes.
it isn't often you get an answer like that from me. I would frame it, if I were you. :-P

but with this modification (I knew it was too good to last) I would substitute 'prison' for the word Hades in your summary.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/14 11:55Profile
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 Re:

What and where is this "prison"? Have we discussed this yet?


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Sam

 2004/9/15 14:24Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
What and where is this "prison"? Have we discussed this yet?


"He Descended" - Ephesians 3:9-10 would seem to indicate Christ going into the lower regions, would this be the place where 'prison' is?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/15 14:28Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re:

Quote:
What and where is this "prison"? Have we discussed this yet?



I feel it is most likely that the prison is the place Christ described as being divided by a great gulf with Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) on the one side and hell on the other. In an earlier post I described how it seems to play out based on what I have heard taught by a well respected Greek scholar in our area Dr. George Westlake.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/15 14:46Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
"He Descended" - Ephesians 4:9-10 would seem to indicate Christ going into the lower regions, would this be the place where 'prison' is?


I think we are on the borders of revelation here, hence my reluctance to be more specific.

I imagine mankind's story and the angels' story as two intersecting circles. The bible is really mankind's story and we usually only get information about angels from the small area of intersection where their story touches ours. We do need to be cautious when we extrapolate our tiny store of angel knowledge.

The 2 Pet 2 reference is to Tartarus;For if God did not spare sinning angels, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment. (2Pe 2:4 MKJV) But 'eis' (the word translated 'into' Tartarus) can mean 'with a view to'. That is it can mean the intended destination rather than a plain statement of arrival.

William Wordsworth says tartarOsas does not necessarily signify "casting" then "down to tartarus", which would be "katatartarOsas"; but (like "phlogOsas" "tephrOsas" (2Pe 2:6 ashes)"keraunOsas") signifies the element of their punishment; and this statement,so understood, is quite consistent with revelations of scripture concerning the present liberty of evil spirits who carry a hell, Tartarus, about with them.

I think this is possible. In this sense it would mean 'Tartarus-bound' in the way we might use the phrase 'hell-bound'. This is consistent with 2 Pet 2:6 and the reference to Sodom and Gomorrha being turned 'into ashes'. tephrOsas: the sentence was "to ashes" # 2Pe 2:6 whereas the 2 Pet 2:4 has tartarOsas: the sentence was "to Tartarus"

According to Thayer 'tartarus' is the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews.

Peter's thought association immediately connects this statement to a reference to the flood. (see earlier posts) I think it must be significant that in the two Peter references there is a clear thought association with the flood [1Pet 3:19-21 and 2 Pet 2:4,5] The other reference, Jude 1:6, would seem to fit this scenario.

My current thinking on this is:

1) some angels sinned at the time of the flood
2) and were cast out of their original habitation
3) they are "chained with/in darkness" and are 'tartarus-bound'. Their punishment has therefore already begun as their liberty is already severly restrictedand they can never regain the regions of light
4) a final judgement day awaits them
# Mt 8:29,25:41

wkip


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/15 14:57Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
I feel it is most likely that the prison is the place Christ described as being divided by a great gulf with Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) on the one side and hell on the other. In an earlier post I described how it seems to play out based on what I have heard taught by a well respected Greek scholar in our area Dr. George Westlake.


Hi Robert
This view is usually expressed in terms of hades, the covered place which included, Abraham's bosom and a kind of ante-chamber to hell itself. In that sense hades would become a kind of soul-state departure lounge with separate sections for the good and the bad.

I'm not convinced that we can place the fallen angels of Gen 6 in hades or gehenna. See my earlier post. There may be a separate holding camp for these particular rebels.

wkip


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/15 15:10Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I'm not convinced that we can place the fallen angels of Gen 6 in hades or gehenna. See my earlier post. There may be a separate holding camp for these particular rebels.



When I think about the fallen angels I think of the bound and the loosed. Of those that are bound I think (as Macarthur suggests) of the temporarily bound and the permanently bound. I don't know that we could dogmatically say that there is but one holding place for those that are bound due to scripture referring to the 4 angels that are bound in the great river Euphrates and other 'unclean spirits' ascending out of the bottomless pit. Both those that are in the bottomless pit and the river Euphrates will be loosed upon the earth during the great tribulation. We also have the passage:

[i]And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.[/i] (Revelation 18:2)

I am not sure what the relationship between the bottomless pit and hell (Gehenna GK, Tophet in the O.T.) is. We know for certain that the rich man was in torment(s) in a flame. Yet God seems to prefer putting the Devil or his devils in the 'bottomless pit' (Revelation 9:1-11) or the 'sides of the pit' (Isaiah 14:15). The 'beast' is also said to ascend from this pit (Revelation 11:7, 17:8, etc.). Yet Revelation 18:2 seems to indicate that God will set up a cage (prison) for these vile devils wherever necessary.

I think of Tophet, the land where the children were made to pass through the fire, and the screams were drown out by drums, which ultimately became what we know as Hinnom or Gehenna as God's type or visual representation of hell- which lends me to think of a huge trash dump. Those that are cast there are not just deserving of God's wrath but are a menace to society at large and a detriment to all through their corruptive influence. Therefore I see these places of holding also as places where wickedness can be contained or quarantined (caged) either permanently (due to the extreme perversion and violence associated with these devils) or temporarily so that they can be loosed "for a season" for God's purpose. Again, the temporarily bound devils will be loosed and the times on earth will become as it was in the days of Noah when they walked the earth before. Yet, God would not allow all these devils to be loosed as it was likely to be unnecessary or He does not want "the sons of God" taking the "daughters of men" again begetting Nepthalim. This I understand as the meaning of the passage stating that they left "their first estate" or habitat going after 'strange' (homo) flesh. They seem to have left their habitat as the sons of God (angels) and transformed themselves into men (no marvel for Satan is transformed as an angel of light or a serpent, etc.). These have made themselves as brute beasts meant to be taken and destroyed just as an animal that 'pushed' or tried to goad people in the Old Testament was to be destroyed. I see these devils as those who had their part in filling the minds of men until every thought of their imagination was only evil continually.

Nevertheless, certain of the warmongering and violent devils, who had their part in filling the world that then was with violence- will likewise have a part to play in gathering together the enemies of God for perhaps one last showdown. Christ will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God that will be poured out without mixture (undiluted) upon those who entertain these devils and allied with His enemy to make war with His Saints.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/16 8:37Profile
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 Re:

RobertW:

Your position is essentially the same as what I was taught in the church. This view was held by Watchman Nee, though he would put it slightly differently -- there is a lower region, Hades (Sheol), which is a temporary holding place for disembodied spirits before the final resurrection. It has two sections, one known as [i]Abraham's bosom[/i] or paradise, and the other a place of torment (Some object because they think this idea is purgatorial, as is often included in criticisms of Nee).

Overall, I think the primary biblical text is Luke 16 where we find the rich man in Hades suffering and Lazarus resting in Abraham's bosom; and the rich man seems to be aware of the differences between Lazarus' and his own conditions. The problem with this approach is that it is not exegetically sound to establish a doctrine based on a parable with a few obscure references alone.

I think there are some extrabiblical Jewish literature that might be used to support the claim that this was one of the first-century Jewish thought -- but obviously, these do not carry the authority of the word of God.

Nevertheless, this is an explanation that makes most sense to me thus far. But I can see Philologos' point, especially since most in this forum agree that the [i]spirits[/i] refer to angels, not humans.

I suppose this is one of the many mysteries that we could not fully comprehend in this present life...


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Sam

 2004/9/16 8:40Profile





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