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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Your Words show just how Ignorant you truely are. I plan on being here, and staying here, because anywhere that I come to that people are calling my God a liar, anywhere people like you are doing the works of the devil, anywhere people like you are quoting crazy men such as Daniels.. I will be there.. because I am sick and tired of the Word meaning nothing to most people in the Church today.



Greg
I would formally ask you to consider suspending Mitch's membership of sermonindex until you have an undertaking from him that he will abide by the rules and spirit of the forum.

I don't think we should be drawn into returning railing for railing; Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1Pe 3:9 KJV) but I don't think other members and visitors to these forums should have to endure it either.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/8 14:22Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Mitch wrote:

Quote:

And I am on this forum, because I am sick...



Hmm... you must be out of the will of God if you are sick... I thought you were proclaiming the WOF doctrines. How is it that you are sick?


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Jimmy H

 2004/9/8 14:47Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

There are a couple of words I may have missed that I would like to add to this discussion due to their relevance in the original question.

1) Paradeisos (Paradise)

2) Abraam Kolpos (Abraham's Bosom)

The theory I have felt most plausable concerning Christ and the events after the cross, yet before the resurrection is that Christ appeared to those who were in Abraham's Bosom (who were in prison which could be translated as 'hold' or 'watch'). Their dwelling was the non-penial side (as it were) of that 'prison' known as Abraham's Bosom (Paradise). The rich man was in hell as we know it- the torment side of the 'prison'-- which will later be cast into the Lake of Fire.

In the story related by Jesus in Luke 16 we read that Abraham said Lazarus was 'comforted' etc, and the rich man was tormented. We see then that in these scriptures some people were carried to "Abraham's bosom" and others were carried to hell where there was torment and the following verses say that there is a gulf between the two that no one can cross.

Abraham's Bosom and Paradeisos (Paradise) are considered one in the same ('place') based upon renderings and interpretations of various Jewish apocalyptic writings by the Essenes, etc. (See Eardmans) Jesus told the thief beside Him that he would be with Him in PARADISE- that day. This was thought to be located "in the lower parts of the earth" metaphorically (Ephesians- what is it but that He descended first into the lower parts of the earth...). So if Christ descended it was NOT to a place of torment, as Bro. Ron pointed out Christ said "It is finished!" He had fulfilled in that moment His office as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the World that taketh away our sins. Death was the penalty for sin and Christ paid that penalty for all, yet it can be applied ONLY to all who believe.

Rather or not Christ in that moment suffered an instantanious separation from God - I cannot tell- yet I do not believe it at all necessary to add it to the sufferings of Christ in order to make them efficacious for making atonement. And that, because the shed blood of Jesus Christ has an infinite value to pay any penalty for sin, what more price need be paid? Isaiah 53:5 tells us he was wounded and bruised for our transgressions and healing. My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?- is a reference to Psalm 22 and I personally believe was simply done by our Lord to draw attention to that passage as a fulfillment of that Messianic prophecy and to help the confused and sifted Jews regard the Messianic concept of a suffering Messiah. Yet- they wanted a Messiah after the order of David- but that's another topic. I don't believe necessarily we have to make it to mean what we have by tradition- though I am not dogmatic about this.

********

[i][size=-small]From a Paradise that is "descended" into- to one that is "caught up" unto.[/size][/i]

**********

Yet later we hear the Apostle Paul state that he was "Caught Up" unto Paradise. Thus, Paradise (Abraam Kolpos/ Abraham's Bosom) that was once in a sense seperated from God- was now united because of the first fruits of death's destruction (death meaning separation). The separation of Abraham's Bosom was ended at the Cross. And now Paul exclaims that he preferred to rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. This is a sharp contrast to those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject unto bondage (Read closely Hebrews 2:9-15). The precious souls who were saved, yet in the "lower parts of the earth" held in their captivity (prison, hold, watch) were liberated from this state by Christ who "led captivity captive" and are now under the altar based upon Revelation. We can REJOICE that we need not be in bondage all our lives to the fear of death- because we too have been delivered from ever even seeing that place that was merely 'afar off'- yet is now as distant as heaven is from hell. This Paradise is the place where Paul desired to depart and to be with Christ which is far better. It is the balcony (as it where) from whence the great cloud of witnesses is looking on. Shall we lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets us- that we might take our place among the victorious who are now alive and in the very presence of Christ?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/8 15:51Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
My decision to leave before, was not a good one. Because you are still out here, speaking on behalf of the god of this world. You are still claiming that God wants you to accept Jesus as Lord, so that he can hurt you. You make no sense anytime you speak. Its time you leave, its time you stop polluting young Christians minds. Its time you stop taking a stand for the devil and finally decide no matter what it takes in your life, you will follow after Christ.


I think after I gave you warning before about abusive comments in the forum where your chances, and you decided to leave which was a good and mature choice. But your returning with this more abusive attitude and words are unacceptable and just bring strive and contention to the forum discussions. Mitch I am banning your account on SermonIndex and I would ask you find another online venue to discuss scripture. You are free and welcome to read (view) the site and download the sermons. So your account membership will be cancelled and you cannot post to the site, please do not try and signup again or I will have to take further action to ban you from accessing the site period. I hope you understand why this action was taken. I pray and hope that you come to a knoweldge of the truth in Jesus Christ and seperate yourself from afore mentioned false teachers. I and other have been and will pray for you as the Spirit of God leads.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/8 16:03Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As Gill says, the dead cannot be saved, therefore I am still wondering what he preached to them.



Liberty to the captives (that were justified by faith). Then He led captivity captive.:-) I would say He preached unto them some of the same things He did the Disciples when they walked with Him in the way and their hearts burned within them. It would be almost like the wardon walking in and reading off your Pardon! Think of how they would have shouted and rejoiced! Your free to go! Your free to go back into the very presence of God! The penalty has been paid!

For so long they had been shut up under a covenant that could do little more than incite rebellion in the hearts and a 'blood of the covenant' that when it was shed cried from the ground for vengence. Yet these precious souls did not look to that covenant for salvation- for the Just shall live by faith. They looked forward to the same cross we look back to and its all in faith. Yet, the blood that cried from the ground for revenge has been supplanted by a blood that speaketh better things than that of Abel! A better covenant established upon better promises with the precious blood of Christ back of it crying that our sins and iniquities shall be remembered no more. He gave gifts unto men! Callings and such. And gave also to us exceeding great and precious promises that by them we can become partakers of the Divine Nature have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Heirs, joint heirs with Christ, etc.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/8 22:42Profile
Nasher
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Posts: 404
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 Re:

What about when he descended to the right hand of His Father?

Are you saying that now He has a different relationship with His Father after the cross?

Or are you messing about with my mind? :-?


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Mark Nash

 2004/9/9 2:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What about when he descended to the right hand of His Father?



descended to the right hand of His father???

Messing with your mind? Looks like somebody beat me to it. :-?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/9 2:44Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Having removed the clutter of a 'harrowing of hell' perhaps its time to move on.

The context of 1Pet3:19-20 is interesting. Why should Peter identify these spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1Pe 3:19-20 KJV)?

and why should he refer to those saved in the flood as 'souls' when he has just referred to the other group, from the same time period, as 'spirits'?

This is problematic ground but the story of the flood would seem to begin with the account of 'rebellious spirits'; That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. (Gen 6:2 KJV) The OT only ever seems to use this description 'sons of God' to describe angels. It is a very apt description of angels is that they were not 'sons' to anyone else; they were created as an entire species by God Himself. Those who have received their life direct from God, without an intermediary, are justifiably described as 'sons of God'; Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.(Luk 3:38 KJV)

The letter of Jude includes an interesting verse; And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(Jud 1:6 KJV) Now who are these? and again why are they singled out from all 'fallen angels'. If if it is true that demons are 'fallen angels' we know that a fair number over them are definitely not 'reserved in everlasting chains' but are wreaking destruction worldwide. There seems to be a sub-set of fallen angels here who have received unique punishment; who are they? Could they be the 'rebellious 'sons of God' of Genesis 6 whose offspring are called nephilim (fallen ones)? and if so what happened to them after the Flood?

Were they 'imprisoned' in 'everlastin chains'? Why was their sins so punished? There is a cryptic comment regarding Noah; These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. (Gen 6:9 KJV) whereas God's description of the rest of humanity is; The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (Gen 6:11-12 KJV). It seems as though Noah and his family may have been the last pure-bred humans on earth. If Noah and his family had become 'corrupted' in their generations there could have been no incarnation. This rebellion would have blocked the way to Christ being made flesh. Their rebellion was quoshed and the wicked spirits that had instigated it were put 'in prison', 'reserved in everlasting chains'.

I think it is these to whom Christ preached 'in prison'. The word 'preach' here is not 'evangelise' but 'proclaim'. The NASB has captured the sense well; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, (1Pe 3:19 NASB) The purpose of the 'preaching' was not to deliver these 'spirits in prison' but to proclaim the finality of God's plan in Christ. Their wicked plan had been frustrated and Christ declared his triumph to these spirits in prison.

This can only ever be a hypothesis. We don't have enough information to settle it as a biblical doctrine but, to me, it is the best hypothesis I have been able to shape.

WKIP








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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/9 3:23Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
What about when he descended to the right hand of His Father?



descended to the right hand of His father???

Messing with your mind? Looks like somebody beat me to it. :-?



Ron, I meant ascended, sorry to give you the wrong stick of the end. ;-)

I'll get back to you on your other comments...


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Mark Nash

 2004/9/9 7:56Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Bro. Ron's details are well worth noting. I have long held this view of Genesis 6 in spite of much modern scholarship that rejects it. The angels that sinned were utterly wicked and violent and left their habitat to wreak havoc on the earth. There were perverse and violent. So violent are they that God has many of the permanently bound until judgment. A few others that can be said to be temporarily bound (such as those bound in the great river Euphrates) will be loosed during the Great Tribulation and will again aid in bringing the days upon the Earth "as they were in the days of Noah." The earth will be filled again with violence and perverseness and the people will not repent in spite of compelling preaching and obvious judgment.

I would have no problem at all seeing the Nepthalim as part of those who heard a message of liberty to the captives and the downside of it being the judgment of those in hell, etc. I would only add that I feel within this context a connection with what Peter is saying as a whole about these prisoners was that they needed their conscience purged before they could come into the presence of God.

Hebrews deals with this need extensively. No blood of bulls and goats could make a man perfect as pertains to the conscience. Verse 21 of this passage in I Peter deals with this need. This side of the cross we have no conception of what it was like to have a continuous rembrance of our sins made every year. Yet, since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ the very conscience that caused Adam and Eve to hide themselves has been purged. This would have been true for the Saints who went before also in my estimation.

For the people in question in I Peter- they could not be purged any farther by the putting away of the filth of the flesh because their bodies were in the ground. They were stripped of the flesh. BUT, they still to this point did not have the answer of a good conscience towards God- which would be required for them to come into His presence without hearing a continual, "WOE IS ME... for I am undone... I am a man of unclean lips... etc.," What the coal from off the altar did for Isaiah- the blood of Jesus Christ now does for all eternity. If the conscience had not been purged I would suggest that men and women would not have been able to come into the presence of God.

Death was a thing to be feared in the Old Testament- but Paul had a desire to depart and be with Christ which is far better. No hiding from God as did Adam. No fig leaves. No more animal skins. They have their robes now that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and feel no shame in His presence as they are no longer naked (as it were). The finality of this process will be when the soul is clothed with the tabernacle from heaven- that spiritual body that desires to serve God rather than sin. As for now- (please bare with me) we have a pure conscience because of the blood of Christ and can walk with God as did Adam and Eve- but we still long to be clothed upon with that spiritual body.

As far as Christ "descending" to the Father- no, He 'ascended' up far above all Heavens that He might fulfill all things. Whether His position in regards to the Father is any different I would say no- because He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and all that He has and is is eternal and immutable.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/9 8:10Profile





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