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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 Peter 3:19

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 Re:

Good job quoting a part of that chapter. Now read the rest of it. Read the entire book actually, and if you want, you'll see some truth in it.

 2004/9/7 19:18









 Re:

And also remember, there might come a point and time where I will lay down my life for my savior, where I will be beaten and hated of all men. But when did Christ say that before that time comes I am to be sick and miserable? And when anywhere did God say, I am the God who makes you sick and poor and makes you stay in sin.

 2004/9/7 19:19
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
But I can tell you, whoever says Health and wealth is not biblical, failed to read some of what Jesus' said



Jesus said:

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

Mat 23:33 You snakes, you children of serpents! How can you escape being condemned to hell?
Mat 23:34 "That is why I am sending you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from town to town.

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


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Mike Balog

 2004/9/7 19:27Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
And also remember, there might come a point and time where I will lay down my life for my savior, where I will be beaten and hated of all men. But when did Christ say that before that time comes I am to be sick and miserable? And when anywhere did God say, I am the God who makes you sick and poor and makes you stay in sin.


I think this discussion has been pursued enough on these forums and we are just repeating the other thread I mentioned earlier. Please let us continue the topic of this thread and the main questions raised.

I would ask you refrain from arguing these matters anymore I see it quite unfruitful for all of us to be quoting scriptures to you and you need even taking heed to them but just repeating your same comments.

Yes this is an evangelical Christian website holding to the tenets of the faith and is [b]not[/b] a word of faith site, we clearly belief it as heresy, as do the majority of Christians who confess Christ, obey God and have the Holy Ghost.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 19:37Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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"When my eyes first opened to the bright light of the Gospel, it was a critical moment, and I saw nothing but the rage and fury of the wolf against the sheep of the Good shepherd and I now think nothing of the little contradiction I meet with. Nevertheless, I wish not to boast, for if, by the grace of God, I have some strength, I have but little in comparison with other laborers a thousand times more faithful than I am. And besides, I have so many cases for humiliation that I must be worse than a fool to esteem myself on any account.
All I can do is to point to the Giver of every good and perfect gift- to Him, Who when He came to open the kingdom of Heaven to us was far from having His earthly path strewed with roses and met with but little honor and respect...
Do not, I entreat you, talk of "an end of all of this," of "Satan being conquered" etc. Either lay down your arms and submit at once to the enemy, or make up your mind to a life of warfare. If outward peace were to be granted you, I should fear that spiritual life would soon expire... Perfect peace in this world is death to the new man... For our flesh-no peace, no repose, no honour, no esteem."
-Felix Neff [i](The Brainerd of the High Alps)[/i]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 23:38Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Let's have another look at our original thread.

There is an assumption that has constantly surfaced in Christian thinking that Christ wreaked havoc in 'hades/hell' at the point of His resurrection. This notion teaches that for the time between His death and His resurrection Christ was a 'prisoner' in Hades/Hell. (We'll look at these terms later .DV)

This theory includes the idea that God 'tricked' Satan. Satan, so the theory goes, demanded the life of Christ in payment for the release of souls in his domain (hades/hell). Having taken his payment back to his domain Satan celebrated with his hordes the death of Christ and his permanent imprisonment. Satan was amazed that on the third day Christ revived and broke out of hades/hell making it possible for Satan's prisoners to follow Him, and so captivity was led captive.

Medieval theology went to town with this idea. In the UK they still have medieval pageants called 'mystery plays' where this whole drama is acted out as a medieval equivalent of street theatre. It is usually called The Harrowing of Hell. C S Lewis who was a medieval scholar included this theory in The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe. In that story the white witch demands the life of Aslan (Christ) is exchange for the life of the traitor. (Edmund?) She takes Aslan's life and his corpse is left on the altar. But Aslan had tricked her with a 'more ancient magic' and rose from the dead, thus setting Edmund at liberty and starting the breakup of the white witche's kingdom.

A modificiation of this idea even became the basis of one Keith Green's famous songs, sung my him and by Jamie Owens and many another over the last 30 years or so. It is a great tune and has a theme of triumph. Unfortunately it is a re-run of this ancient 'ransom to the devil' theory. The lyrics include this verse...

Swallowed into Earth's dark womb,

Death has triumphed, that's what they say,

But try to hold Him in the tomb,

The Son of Life, rose on the third day.

Just look, the gates of hell, they're falling,

Crumbling from the inside out,

He's bursting through the walls with laughter,

Listen to the Angels shout!

It is finished, He has done it,

Life conquer death, Jesus Christ, has won it!

His plan of battle, you know, it fooled them all,

They led Him off to prison to die,

But as He entered Hades Hall,

He broke those hellish chains with a cry.

Just listen to those demons screaming,

See Him bruise the serpent's head,

The prisoners of Hell, He's redeeming,

All the power of death is dead!

It is finished, He has done it,

Life conquer death, Jesus Christ, has won it!

Just look, the gates of hell, they're falling,

Crumbling from the inside out,

He's bursting through the walls with laughter,

Listen to the Angels shout!

It is finished, He has done it,

Life conquer death, Jesus Christ, has won it!

this is medieval superstition and not biblical revelation. It was not in hades/hell that Christ bruised the serpent's head but upon the cross. NOr was it in hades/hell that Christ 'was redeeming' by His exploits. We were redeemed 'by his blood' that is to say 'by his cross' not by His resurrection. Keith was in serious biblical error here. I am surprised that someone didn't tell him. I am sure he would have seen the dangerous implications of this idea and strangled this song at birth.

These notions have been recycled by the prosperity preachers who routinely teach that Christ gained a victory for us in hades/hell. This removes the cross from its central place where 'justice divine was satisfied' and where full and perfect judicial satisfaction for the sins of the whole world was accomplished. The focus then switches to the imagined events in hades/hell. Thus, according to this theory, our salvation is based on legends rather than the revelation of the Scriptures.


Here is a website that will give you some idea of the areas covered in 'atonement theory'. I don't endorse the site but it may be a good place to start for folk who are unfamiliar with theological language. Atonement Theory [The author seems to prefer the Moral Government Theory to Penal Substitution (which is my own understanding). Finney taught Moral Government Atonement theory as do YWAM today. I think the reformers were right in their recognition that Paul's masterpiece of atonement theory declared in Romans is utterly forensic.]

In conclusion, a little thought will show how ridiculous this whole theory is. It stands on the presupposition that Satan has a 'domain' under his control in which he keeps prisoners. The teaching of scripture is that Satan will not be the warder of hades/hell but will be the chief prisoner of Gehenna. That our salvation should depend upon God duping a Creature hardly bears thinking about.

Any questions, before we move on?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/8 4:24Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
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 Re:

Hi Ron, I'll "try" and answer your questions:

1. why is this group singled out?

This group of people were those that lived in Noah's time (while the ark was a preparing). In Gen 6:2 it mentions the Sons of God, who were these? Angels?


2. what is the thought context of the writer? What association of ideas are to be seen here?

In the previous verse, Peter is talking about Christ suffering (once), for sins to bring us to God. He then digresses (i.e. he is led by the spirit to move into another area of revelation) into talking about how by the Spirit he went into prison (did the Spirit go with Him or did He do there in the "power" of the Spirit?), he then explains who the spirits were, he then uses this to link into how the baptism of Noah and his ark is a type of our Baptism (with the Spirit).


3. Individuals are usually referred to as 'souls' in scripture. Why does Peter call them 'spirits'?

I don't know enough about the difference between a soul and a spirit so I would welcome your guidance here (although you may need to start another discussion to do so ;-) )


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Mark Nash

 2004/9/8 5:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I would ask you refrain from arguing these matters anymore I see it quite unfruitful for all of us to be quoting scriptures to you and you need even taking heed to them but just repeating your same comments



Quoting scritprues to me? Lord have mercy on you, are you a liar, or just ignornat of what you have said? You do nothing but quote things which have been said by men who have no idea who Jesus Christ even is. You never quote scripture, when you do, like from Hebrews, you dont even include the scripture in its full context. You just rip it out, and use it how you want to. You act as though you know the Word of God, but you quote men who know less about the Word of God than Satan does.

I dont wish to argue anything with you. Paul wrote that there would be those like you who are weak and that I will not be able to persuade them otherwise. You teach doctrine, I teach the Word. I've seen lots of your kind, I use to go to Baptist churches when I was much younger. I know whats it like to believe in a God who has no power and has no love for his children. Its a shame though, that you believe Jesus Christ had to be sick while he was on this earth, and that he had to beg for money. I never once read any of those versus in the Bible.

 2004/9/8 7:21









 Re:

Crsschk,

I understand the scriptures you have quoted there. I understand exactly what they say. But let me ask you this, do you think to be hated of all men, I have to be poor and sick? If someone kills me because I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ do you think I have to be poor and sick when they kill me? The Scriptures tell us there can be times of trials and tribulations because we are saved, but it never says there will be constant trials and tribulations. All those things you posted are true, very true of course. All of that could very well happen to me. But where in the Scripture does it say exactly that God will make sure I'm miserable untill Satan wishes to do away with me?

Mitch

 2004/9/8 7:26
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Mark
I'll wait just a little in case any folks have any questions about my posting on the ransom to the devil theory.

I have posted that primarily to try to remove some of the clutter from the discussion. It is plain, biblically, that Christ did not enter hades/hell to accomplish anything pertaining to our (or anyone else's) redemption. That was fully accomplished at Calvary. The question remains 'did he enter hades at all'? In fact the main verse from which the Apostles Creed...

Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead and buried;
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven...

gets its teaching is Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Act 2:27 KJV) The NASB has a different rendering which may be significant; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. (Act 2:27 NASB).

You may notice the change of preposition from 'in' in the KJV to 'to' in the NASB. The preposition is 'eis' which means 'into or towards'. So the actual words of Peter at Pentecost do not say 'he was in hades' but that God would not 'abandon him to hades'; which I think you will see is something quite different. In the NASB version it might be said that this implies preservation 'from' hades rather than deliverance 'out of' hades. All in all it becomes a precarious verse upon which to base the whole theory of Christ's descent into 'hades'.

In addition the verb translated 'leave' in the KJV and 'abandon' in the NASB is the one used by Christ in the great cry of dereliction; My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me. This makes it plain that although He was 'abandoned' on the cross He certainly was not 'abandoned' to hades.

Added to which 'hades' in Jewish understanding included the physical grave as well as the covering waiting place of disembodied souls. I don't think we can base a descent into 'hades' on this verse.

So I am still trying to clear away the clutter. If Christ did not descend into hades and did not launch a rescue mission from there in delivering souls imprisoned by Satan, what can 1 Peter be referring to? and what prison is this?

back later...


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/8 7:51Profile





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