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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

I think at the end of the day it all boils down to obedience to God. Myself, I would question any prompting to enter a place like this, knowing that I have had serious lust problems in the past. I have only ever known one man who truly didn't have a problem with lust, and the basis of his immunity was being molested at a young age.

The question that needs to be answered is, "Am I trying to justify my yearning to oggle women, by claiming to obey God's great commision command?" I work in secular employment, in an industry riddled with disrespect for women. The abnomitions Paul gave in 1 Cor 10, are incredibly obvious, when around people who aren't trying to feign piety.

A "christian" will sneak a look at a woman's cleavage, and then deny it upon accusation, due to fear of man vs fear of God issues (the same ones that lead people to miss private prayer time, but never the prayer meeting). They hide behind statements like "Jesus meant to 'yearn longingly' when He said 'look lustfully'. I didn't yearn. You can't prove it. Stop 'heaping condemnation' on me."

The "sinner" say, "Will you take a look at that!!!", leaving you feeling embarress for him, her and God, not knowing where to look. This is undoubtably admitting that the "food is sacrificed to idols". Tell me that the bulk of the people who are their aren't their for the "oggling". Why aren't we worried about what we communicate by entering a place like this?

Maybe there is a place for this kind of evangelism. Maybe this is something for those who are truly "liberated" from their lusts. I don't know how this could equate with Jesus and Paul's direst warning's regarding fleeing from lust.

In context with the degree that God has been challenging me with Edenic issues of life (ie. Life = Simplicity = Grace vs Death = Complexity = Law) this seems to complex to be something God would ask. Then again, He did ask Elijah to feed on roadkill provided by unclean ravens, only to lead him to a gentile home for provision after the forementioned food supply ran out.

All I can say is, this year has been full of a dismantling of all that I held as sacred, in favour of God's will. I've been challenged by sermons that included "swear words" to expose believers to fear of hearing them in the world. Challenged by sermons that attempted to lead me from Godly principles such as tithing, and committed fellowship.

What's "christianity" coming to, I hear repeatedly asked? A massive shaking of "foundations". Is this issue going to far? My heart tells me "Yes".


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/8/27 11:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Greg says

Quote:
hmmm I would say to your quote of ct studd 1 yard from hell doesnt mean in it I would subscribe to stay outside.



Neither do I mean 'in it'. But Hooters is not hell, it part of earth. The only time earth experienced 'hell' was in the person of Christ at Calvary. Hooters is not hell, it is enemy territory.

I have no doubt that if the manager and one of his workers have really responded to God, they are on their way out. I think heathen temples are much more dangerous places in terms of 'enemy territory' but if given the opportunity I would take it to preach Christ. I would get folk to hold me up whilst inside and I would hold myself responsible to debrief to those who could pray for such things.

My philosophy is starting from a different place. I believe the whole earth is full of the glory of the LORD. I believe he owns the site where Hooters functions. I believe I am called to go into all the world to preach the gospel. The ship will be much safer if it stays in the harbour; but ships weren't designed for harbours. The foul happenings at Hooters are taking place on land which is God's. Yes, I would still go.

However, I would not encourage others to do the same unless they had the same conviction and the same friends who would cover me in the venture.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/8/27 12:03Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


LUKE 14:
[21] Then the Master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

[23] And the Lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Hmmmmmmm .... perhaps if we were ALL busy in the streets, lanes, highways and hedges, none of us would have to even concider Hooters ....'0)

 2004/8/27 12:36Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Rahman wrote:
Hmmmmmmm .... perhaps if we were ALL busy in the streets, lanes, highways and hedges, none of us would have to even concider Hooters ....'0)



Bravo Rahman...Bravo 8-)


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/8/27 12:54Profile
Jslimbaugh
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Joined: 2004/7/21
Posts: 22


 Re:

Greetings --

I am happy that there are so many contributing to this thread who recognize the intrinsic error in adopting Hooters as a place for formal Bible study.

We have so many differing points of view in the church today over such matters. Often, these kinds of things are defended on the basis of "one's calling." However, there is one calling common to every Christian: the call to be holy and the call to be sanctified and set apart.

There are some things that are not proper or appropriate in any context, and cannot be defended because they violate spiritual universals. We don't buy drugs to witness to addicts in crack-houses, we don't patronize strip clubs to win the lust-addicted or those women who feed such bondage, and we don't become criminals to win those in prison. Simple logic tells us that there are boundaries to Paul's words, "I have become all things to all men that by all means I might win some."

Having a Bible study at Hooter violates MANY Scriptural absolutes.

1.) Paul said to "FLEE lust." Is having a Bible study at Hooters in line with this?
2.) Jesus said adultery was a sin, and Paul said adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom. Remember, according to Jesus, all you have to do is "lust in your heart" to become an adulterer. And may I say this -- if any man tries to tell me he can spend time in Hooters without lusting, he is a either a liar or hopelessly dilluted.
3.) Paul said, "Have NOTHING to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." Lust is a fruitless deed of darkness, as well as drunkenness...two things Hooters has built its finantial base on.
4.) It is a matter of witness...claim any justification you wish -- you are still funding, patronizing, and promoting sin, either tacitly (by your presence) or directly (by your dollars).
5.) You destroy unbelievers by making them think God approves of their own presence there. "If the church can come here and it's OK, why can't I?" Paul says that when we cause people to stumble this way, we have rejected love. He says that even if we had the freedom to go to Hooters (which we don't), that we destroy those who don't understand by our practice of freedom.

As has already been said, Jesus did visit with sinners. Others correctly stated that he did not go into den's of iniquity to do it. One response was, "We don't know that...the Bible doesn't tell us everything Jesus did."

For one thing, this is an argument made from silence, and it's a real violation of the Scriptures. You are assuming something from what IS NOT stated, rather than from WHAT IS. Not a good way to determine truth.

The only time we ever see Jesus in a situation (voluntarily) in which it might be argued that sin was being practiced among His hearers is at the wedding supper in Cana. Here it was said, "after the guests have had too much to drink." But even in this instance, such actions don't carry the same connotation as being at Hooters. The wedding supper was a righteous event in which some people might have been doing something ungodly. Hooters, to the contrary, is a sinful environment in which people have come for the sole purpose of descending into sin.

Thus, to use Christ's association with sinners as a justification for this matter is a horribly mislead conclusion!!!

Beware -- the last days will be marked by terrible deception. Brothers and sisters, "keep your hearts and minds" pure before God.

Blessings,
Jason


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JSL

 2004/8/27 13:19Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Hi all,

I like the direction this discussion is going since after the contribution of [b]philologos,[/b] even though there are still different opinions as to whether the bible study at Hooters is appropriate.

First, we have moved away from the instinctive [b][i]legalistic[/i][/b] reactions--"That's a filthy place, why would [i]any[/i] Christian go there?"--but as [b]philologos[/b] pointed out, sometimes God sends his people to dangerous enemy's territory to fight the battle.

Second, the focus is now (rightfully, I think) focussed on the [i][b]temptations[/b][/i] involved. [b]KeithLaMoche[/b] was right when he said that this scenario is different from that of a bar. I do think the temptation for men is much stronger in this case than a pub or a bar. And the lure of sexual provocation is one of the most prominent problem today. So even for those who felt that it is possible to run a bible study at Hooters, they must be warned of the dangers involved, lest they end up shaming the name of the Lord. Which brings me to the third point--

Third, the prayer of the community of faith is absolutely necessary for any venture into treacherous waters such as these, as [b]philologos[/b] suggested. I do not know anyone from [i]Single Focus Atlanta[/i] who runs this program, although judging from their other (pretty normal) evangelistic outreach programs, they seem to be [i]genuine[/i] Christians with a fervour to spread the gospel, perhaps they have a special calling from God? I can't really say for sure, I don't know how it all started. But my prayers are out there for them, whether I approve of their actions or not, praying that in whatever they do, God will be protecting them.

I am not saying that we all [i]have to[/i] follow their example, but I think we should at least be open to the possibility that God [i]might[/i] do this--Is there really any place where Christ will not go to seek the lost?

That being said, I do think it is legitimate to ask whether those people did this to give themselves an excuse to sin, or to ask whether this way is more distracting than effective, or to ask whether this way exposes Christians to too much temptation.

[b][i]Do I sound self-contradictory?[/i][/b] On one hand, I want to insist that our sovereign Lord has the right to open the door of the gospel, quite contrary to our expectations and concepts of "holiness", to minister to people anywhere--including casinos and brothels. On the other hand, we must be deeply aware of human fraities and weaknesses when such circumstances arise; being too self-confident of our self-control is extremely risky business. So I don't want to give an absolute NO, but my YES is nonetheless a cautious one--be sure the support of the [b]community of faith[/b] is behind you in this spiritual warfare.


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Sam

 2004/8/27 13:21Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
He just does not understand how any Christian man could go into a Hooters, especially week after week, and not be walking into a den of temptation. When God has layed certain standards on your heart- going into a place like this slowly weakens these standards bit by bit.


Yes there is no way you could continually go into a place like that and not be effected even if you are full of the Holy Ghost. Perhaps to go in there a few times and get the people intrested to go to another building perhaps a church is a more wise move.

Quote:
And the article states that one manager has become a christian, and one of the waitresses. Ok, will the manager and waitress continue to work there and promote that environment? This doesn't make any sense. If the goal was to get people converted- then if they are really truly converted- they would be fleeing the place- and you know that Hooters would not allow that to be happening. They would not want a bible study going on there that CONVICTS people so that they might leave.


AMEN! wow people that is so important chanin raises the issue that really shows the possible fruit of this bible study. Are they new creatures in Christ? have they come from darkness to light? They would be fleeing from that place of immorality.. it just doesn't make sense for them to comfortably work there as they used to be. This is of serious concern over the validity of this evangelism venture.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/8/27 13:36Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Pruning hedges

Quote:

Rahman wrote:
Hmmmmmmm .... perhaps if we were ALL busy in the streets, lanes, highways and hedges, none of us would have to even concider Hooters ....'0)



Touche', Rahman. :lol:


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/8/27 14:11Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

sermonindex wrote:
This is of serious concern over the validity of this evangelism venture.



True, it certainly is a venture that skirts the line of foolishness more than the one of faith. :-(


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/8/27 14:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yes there is no way you could continually go into a place like that and not be effected even if you are full of the Holy Ghost. Perhaps to go in there a few times and get the people intrested to go to another building perhaps a church is a more wise move.


My understanding is that Jesus visits every time they open. This is a very fragile concept of holiness; have you not considered that He who is in us is mightier than he that is in Hooters.
However, this was my meaning too. I spoke of an 'opportunity' not the forming of a Hooters Christian Fellowship.

Quote:
wow people that is so important chanin raises the issue that really shows the possible fruit of this bible study. Are they new creatures in Christ? have they come from darkness to light? They would be fleeing from that place of immorality.. it just doesn't make sense for them to comfortably work there as they used to be.


Were you made a new creature the first time you heard the gospel? I know I wasn't. Did you pass from darkness to light the first time you heard? I know I didn't. The light has to shine into darkness and is well able to. We won't need to say 'come out here if you want the light to shine on you'. I think the best antidote to darkness is light, rather than to cage the darkness. You are the light of the world.

I hope my credentials on this site are sufficient for all to understand that I am not condoning Hooters or sin in any form. I am not suggesting that the light of God can be cherished in the darkness. Heathen idolatry is much worse, in my understanding, a far greater offence to God. But I would be willing to go into heathen darkness to preach the gospel; I think we all would. I will not remove my shoes in a heathen temple but if they allow me in I would preach to them. I will not 'partake' of Hooters but if they would allow me in I would preach to them.

Moody once said, 'we are to be the salt of the world'. (not the church. my comment) He went on to say 'no one ever preserved fish by putting the fish into one barrel and the salt into another'. Going into 'all the world' surely includes Hooters.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/8/27 14:53Profile





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