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 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

Hi Intense,

There is a forum rule on SI, about limiting discussion to the topic in hand, without turning it against other posters. I could easily answer your question, but it is nothing to do with mine to you. My not knowing whether you consider yourself a son of God doesn't interfere with our ability to address the several comments you've made which imply you are confused about the extent of the deity of Christ.

You've asked me twice to answer a question which implies you want me to choose between Jesus being the Son of God, or, the Son of man. My question to you to clarify your statement about God having raised 'a sinless man not God', was relevant to my asking. So, to your old question, without your answer:

Quote:
Who is coming again in clouds of Glory Jesus the son of man or Jesus the Son of God?

I know this is maddening but I need to know whether you are asking me to choose between two identities for Jesus - 'Son of man' and 'Son of God' - or you just want me to quote Him describing Himself as the Son of man in the verses pertaining to His return?

I ask, because there are 85 entries for 'Son of man' in the New Testament, and I'm not at all sure what point you're trying to make about the ones which are connected with His return - because He was clearly the Son of God after His resurrection, before He ascended to His Father.

I hope you can shed some light on this for me? Many thanks. :-)

 2009/5/10 12:11









 Re:

Quote:

Alive-to-God wrote:
Hi Intense,

There is a forum rule on SI, about limiting discussion to the topic in hand, without turning it against other posters. I could easily answer your question, but it is nothing to do with mine to you. My not knowing whether you consider yourself a son of God doesn't interfere with our ability to address the several comments you've made which imply you are confused about the extent of the deity of Christ.



So answer it. Either you are or your aren't by virtue of the new birth. Do you consider yourself, born again? I doubt there is SI forum rule, preventing you from answering.

Quote:
You've asked me twice to answer a question which implies you want me to choose between Jesus being the Son of God, or, the Son of man.


It is your bent to avoid being wrong that prevents you from answering.

Quote:
My question to you to clarify your statement about God having raised 'a sinless man not God', was relevant to my asking. So, to your old question, without your answer:
Quote:
Who is coming again in clouds of Glory Jesus the son of man or Jesus the Son of God?

I know this is maddening but I need to know whether you are asking me to choose between two identities for Jesus - 'Son of man' and 'Son of God' - or you just want me to quote Him describing Himself as the Son of man in the verses pertaining to His return?



Why maddening when all you have to do quote the words of Jesus and ponder them, for the first time, as to why He would place one of His titles in front of the other?

Quote:
I ask, because there are 85 entries for 'Son of man' in the New Testament, and I'm not at all sure what point you're trying to make about the ones which are connected with His return - because He was clearly the Son of God after His resurrection, before He ascended to His Father.



Why not wonder at why there are 85 entries of son of man mentioned? How many times is son of God mentioned? And again, why didn't God personally call Him His son before His water-Holy Ghost baptisms. Why is so hard for you to see Jesus, son of Man as not being divine before He was made so? Every Name given Him was given before His Transfiguration. How many times do we read: And His Name, "shall be" and yet never was until His ascension?

"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee." Hebrews 5:5 (KJV)


7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 5:7-9 (KJV)

Quote:
I hope you can shed some light on this for me? Many thanks. :-)



Without you investigating on your own to seek the answers, I don't believe what I have to say will benefit you.

 2009/5/10 12:37









 Re: delete

 2009/5/10 12:55









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

Hello Intense,

Quote:
Why is so hard for you to see Jesus, son of Man as not being divine before He was made so?n

Because I know Him. He was divine as the pre-incarate Son of God; He was divine when conceived by the overshadowing of the Highest; He was divine when He was born and in dream His legal human father-to-be was told 'Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.' Matt 1

There is no other way a virgin could conceive, apart from an act of God. Elisabeth knew it - Luke 1:43

Simeon knew it: Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 [u]Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation[/u], 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Daniel 3:25.

Earlier, I listed other scriptures which described Him as the Creator of both the seen and the invisible worlds - the Word by which [u]all[/u] things hold together. Do you reject these as proof of His eternal divinity when He became a Man - the Word made Flesh?

Could I say... I do understand how important the pronouncements by God of His Sonship were to both Himself and those with Him, but we cannot remove from scripture all previous allusions to His divinity, by whichever names it was prophesied.

 2009/5/10 13:05









 Re:

Herein is your error:

He was divine as the pre-incarate Son of God;

The Word was God who became flesh. The Word was NEVER a son.

Again: Your difficulty lies in making distinctions, . . . that are supportable from scripture.

 2009/5/10 13:10









 Re: Adan;s sin ... our guilt?

Hello Intense,

I think you might have meant to say 'insupportable from scripture'. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
Herein is your error:

He was divine as the pre-incarate Son of God;

The Word was God who became flesh. The Word was NEVER a son.

Again: Your difficulty lies in making distinctions, . . . that are supportable from scripture.

I'm sure others can add more detail to this, but I'll keep to three key thoughts: 1) the verse which says Mary conceived under the shadow of the Highest, confirmed by Elisabeth's inspired eulogy, 2) her husband-to-be was told the baby was a fulfilment of the prophecy 'God with us'. (So, God was His Father, He was God from the womb) and 3) He was the Word made Flesh according to John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, [u]and the Word was with God, and the Word was God[/u]. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 [u]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made[/u]. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is indeed a mystery, but I believe every word of it.

 2009/5/10 13:28









 Re:

Quote:
I think you might have meant to say 'insupportable from scripture'. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



To the contrary: Since it is scripture you ignore.

For instance, was the Word ever begotten? Who was ever a son in past eternity except in the foreknowledge of God? It is not a mystery as people suppose. Answer please.

 2009/5/10 13:34









 Re:

Quote:
I'm sure others can add more detail to this, but I'll keep to three key thoughts: 1) the verse which says Mary conceived under the shadow of the Highest, confirmed by Elisabeth's inspired eulogy, 2) her husband-to-be was told the baby was a fulfilment of the prophecy 'God with us'. (So, God was His Father, He was God from the womb) and 3) He was the Word made Flesh according to John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is indeed a mystery, but I believe every word of it.



That was all written after He was revealed to be who He was; after the ascension. The mystery is no longer hidden from us as Paul spoke of it being revealed.

 2009/5/10 13:43









 Re:

[color=000000]"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."Hebrews 5:14 (KJV)

More on topic:

Adam was not of "full age" when he partook of the tree of knowledge of good evil. He had no sensibilities in the arena of Spiritual warfare. However, there is little doubt in my mind he would have partaken of it in some point in time when better prepared to handle ALL the knowledge of good and evil. Indeed, it would require consummate intimacy with the Father or divinity itself for that ability.[/color]

 2009/5/10 14:32









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

Hello Intense,

Quote:
That was all written after He was revealed to be who He was; after the ascension. The mystery is no longer hidden from us as Paul spoke of it being revealed.

Well it certainly is a pleasure to find a point of agreement. :-D I mean your comment about Paul.

But, there was much more going on day by day to confirm that Jesus was the Son of God, than the heavens opening at His baptism. How many people were there in Israel who didn't hear that voice? On what basis did the crowds follow Him, if not because He was showing every day, more and more signs of being the fulfilment of all prophecy about Himself?

I realised I didn't answer anything in this paragraph, so here are more thoughts.
Quote:
Why not wonder at why there are 85 entries of son of man mentioned?

There is probably more than one answer to that question, but here are a couple of thoughts. 1) Jesus wanted to establish in the minds of those who later would quote Him, His humanity. For, unless He was a Man, He could not lay down His life for us on the cross. 2) One of the commonest errors those who accept His divinity make, is to assume that He overcame temptations of the flesh because He was God, rather than that THE MAN Jesus Christ chose not to sin.
Quote:
How many times is son of God mentioned?

45

Quote:
And again, why didn't God personally call Him His son before His water-Holy Ghost baptisms.

I believe He did, when He sent the angel to speak to Joseph. (Giving a child a name was extremely important, which we can see from the experience of John the Baptist's father.) And Jesus reminded Joseph of this dream probably, when He gave His explanation as to why He had stayed in the Temple talking with the religious hierarchy, after He knew His parents had left for home. Luke 2:49

Quote:
Why is so hard for you to see Jesus, son of Man as not being divine before He was made so?

Because I [u]know[/u] He was divine from eternity, from long before He left heaven to become a man Child in Mary's womb. Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, [u]but a body hast thou prepared me[/u]: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Quote:
Every Name given Him was given before His Transfiguration. How many times do we read: And His Name, "shall be" and yet never was until His ascension?

I can't agree He was 'never' any of those prophesied Names until His ascension. People said things like: John 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes. 31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

The woman of Samaria could not have known what had happened on the banks of the Jordan when the dove descended. She judged Him by a different criteria. He showed Himself to her as 'that Prophet', Deu 18:18, 19, John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]. 27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? 28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, [u]to make him a king[/u], he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Exo 15:26, Num 12:13, Deut 32:39, 2 Kings 20:5, 2 Chron 30:20, Malachi 4:2, Matthew 4:23

The Old Testament was the only 'scripture' available in Jesus' day. It was imperative that He fulfil every reference to Himself in such a way that those who would believe could recognise Him. That's why the credentials of the Messiah are laid out so painstakingly and often by those prophecies. God left the Jews with no excuse. Even the blind, deaf and dumb could testify to their life-changing encounters with Him. But still there were those who determined not to believe, right in the face of all the evidence.

He was God in heaven before He came, and I don't know how He could stop being God. Then, there is the importance of His predicted geneology, that was absolutely central to establishing the identity of the Messiah [i]beyond all doubt[/i].
Quote:
For instance, was the Word ever begotten? Who was ever a son in past eternity except in the foreknowledge of God? Answer please.

Isn't this playing with words? Earlier you mentioned John 17. This is where Jesus prophesies one last time, a profound change in the relationship between God and His followers. The Incarnation was an irrevokable moment in history, on which everything else depends, now. If you prefer not to believe that Jesus was divine until God called Him His Son, it's between you and God. I've tried to show you why I don't. Please could we leave it at that on this single point?

 2009/5/10 14:43





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