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 Re: Tea Parties

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Or, by promoting the moral law of God.

Earlier, HomeFree98 asked
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Do you think these tea parties are biblical and have the spirit of Christ behind them?

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Do you really think that the Boston Tea Party was a good thing? [b]It appears to be rebellion[/b] [i]Emphasis mine[/i]

Exactly. And once Christians are [i]seen[/i] joining these occasions, the edge of their sword is dulled. The much-explained-by-Paul Washer [i]difference of culture[/i] between the Church and the world blends easily with the haze on a sunny afternoon, and all is well with the world. No wonder the media didn't report these gatherings. The Christians who don't feel compromised by banners with a serpent saying 'don't tread on me', needn't worry about snake bite. They have shot themselves in the foot entirely purposefully (albeit mindlessly :-?). Sorry!

Dear brethren, the bigger picture is [i]everything[/i]. How can we be a balm (salt) in the storm when it erupts, if we have lost our savour?

 2009/4/17 15:25
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

First, we have to make a distinction between the historical Boston Tea Party and the tea parties that took place on the 15th. The Boston Tea Party involved the destruction of property that was not rightfully owned by those who destroyed it. That was wrong. There were better ways to protest. However, the tea parties on the 15th were completely peaceful and within Constitutional boundaries. I fail to see how it is a spot on someones Christian testimony to be actively engaged in the civic process of the United States.

The point still remains, the burden of proof is on those who rebuke those who attend the tea parties to prove from the Scripture that such peaceful behavior is prohibited. If that cannot be shown, it is simply a matter of Christian liberty. I'm seeing a lot of people's opinion as to what was proper Christian behavior on the 15th, however it must be shown that God forbids a peaceful petition.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/4/17 16:19Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3159


 Re:

[b]2 Corinthians 6[/b]

1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

11O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

12Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

13Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 2009/4/17 16:44Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3159


 Re:

[b]Isaiah 55:8[/b]

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 2009/4/17 16:56Profile









 Re:

Hi Taylor, you keep talking about Scriptures while ignoring the ones given. Jesus put it to rest. If you want to add something to it , then lets have it, or lets have another Scripture that would back up what you say. Perhaps Jesus did not understand the complexities of modern politics when He spoke? Or maybe a limited idea of freedom that was clarified by the constitution? Of course I am speaking with tongue in cheek, but in many ways that is what you are implying. The tea party that I saw on TV was definately rebellious, in fact, the govenor of Texas talked about seceding if they did not get their own way. Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and others speak only in demeaning terms of the authorities, they have nothing but contempt and anger. These are the leaders of this movement. It is rebelious and it seeks to undermine the authority of the present government. That is not what we have been called to do as Christians. Every two years the citizens of this country get to vote, mid-term and general elections. We just had a general election and the majority, knowing that President Obama would increase taxes, voted for him anyway. Now, that seems to me to be democracy in action. The majority rule(this is why you will not find this concept in Scriptures, just another worldly philosophy from a Greek called Democrates)

And so we come full circle and simply ask for a Scripture or New Testement example of Christians forming a party or aligning itself to a party to change the world? It did'nt happen. I think there should be a seperation of Christianity and philosophy. Philosophy's are man made, vain imaginations of men who believe that they know how to run the world succesfully. Now, many philosohies are not neccacarily bad, they are just not of God. The time is short, the Lord is coming back, the harvest is ripe, the workers are few. Do we really have time, as Christians, to dedicate to rallies attempting to lower taxes? Maybe some do............Frank

PS Nothing wrong with people of the world doing this, in fact I would expect nothing less. Who, in the natural, would want to pay taxes? Soemthing to remeber though, the poorest person in the States is richer than most other people in the world. And God is the God of the whole world, He loves the world. In fact, He loves it so much that He sent His Son to die for it, while they were yet sinners. Something to bear in mind.

 2009/4/17 17:16









 Re: 2 Corinthians 6

Amen sister.

 2009/4/17 17:20
fuehrerbe21
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 151
Wisconsin

 Re:

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If God is in control of all things, and He is allowing this "taxation" to happen, and we join others in physically "protesting" this "taxation" are we not actually "protesting" against our Lord?



This statement has had me thinking quite a bit. In A.W. Pink's The Sovreignty of God, he talks about how when we complain about the weather, we are essentially complaining against God.

Now, when we say that God is sovreign, we mean that God is in control of everything. Nothing is out of his control. So, it then leads to the question, does God "do" evil. We would think of a tornado that destroys a town and kills many as "evil" or "bad", but with God being sovreign, I would say that it is a means for God to glorify himself. Hundreds might die, but are there any spared? Does God show his mercy on the town? Regardless, He is still just and sovreign in all He does or permits.

But then we come to the issue of "free will". When I sin, is it me making the decision for myself, or is it God making me make the decision? After all, if I really have the ability to do anything on my own and God not have control over the situation, would mean that God is not sovreign. But, what if it isn't either of the options. What if it is God permitting me to make the decision. Me, in my fallen state, will make wrong decisions. But won't God glorify himself through me even more when I am redeemed of the sins I've commited?

I would say that if we confess that God is sovreign and to complain about something means we are complaining against God, doesn't this mean that anything we ask God for is really complaining to God about God? I mean, how many of us have asked God for anything? I know I have prayed that sick would be healed. Shouldn't I rather just tell someone, "stop complaining, be thankful for what you have"? This goes against scripture. We are told in Philippians to make our requests known to God through prayer.

If God answers our prayers, AWESOME! Praise Him! If he doesn't, AWESOME! Praise Him! It doesn't make Him any less. He is still God.

Yes, as Christians we should adhere to Romans 13. God has ordained every ruler. We know that not all rulers are even God fearing people. But they are there nonetheless. God will glorify Himself through all things. The early Christians are a perfect example of this. They were persecuted and murdered for their faith. This day is coming for us, saints.

The difference between the early church and us today is that we live in a system that allows us to peacefully protest our government. We are able to be obedient to scripture but still stand up and say, "this is wrong" (no matter the issue).

I agree that Christ should be our first priority. He is all there is. Everything else is loss. But weren't the Israelites told to settle in Jeremiah? They were to plant crops, have children, build homes. They had not entered the promised land, but they still had to survive (in their case many, many generations) to get to that point. We are not to be "of the world" but we do live "in the world".

I do agree that you have to be careful when dealing with philosophies of man and scripture. At the same time, you also need to consider if your understanding of scripture is accurate. It is important to look at the context of what is written, who it was written to and then you can determine how it applies to us today.

I do know that when we all get to Heaven, we will all realise how foolish we were. But God's grace will cover all.

In Him,
Ben

PS - This was not directed at anyone specifically. This is merely me 'talking' through some of the issues that have been raised.

EDIT: An additional thought regarding the quote above - This is a site that is trying to promote Biblical Revival. Now, maybe I'm off track, but I would say that in order for revival to occur, we need reformation in the church.

Now, based on the quote above, would it be considered 'complaining' against God to desire reform within the church, or even a revival in the first place. I mean, if revival isn't occuring, God obviously has it that way for a reason. Is this then something we should not desire?


_________________
Ben Fuehrer

 2009/4/17 18:11Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Taylor, you keep talking about Scriptures while ignoring the ones given. Jesus put it to rest. If you want to add something to it , then lets have it, or lets have another Scripture that would back up what you say.



Appolus,

That is because the Scriptures that have been given have nothing to do with a peaceful petition of the government. They have to do with obeying the government's laws, which we do. Frankly, the majority of the people on this site probably think partaking in political action is "worldly", and I understand I'm in the minority here. But, as I said, no Scripture has been produced that prohibits a peaceful petition, therefore, I do not prohibit my fellow believers from partaking in them.

Quote:
Soemthing to remeber though, the poorest person in the States is richer than most other people in the world.



This is a good thought, and one that I have had before.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/4/17 18:14Profile









 Re:

Hi Taylor

Hey, we agree on something :-) I think if we expanded upon what we agree on it may tie into the main debate and put it to and end :-)

I think the argument that the Scriptures say nothing about peacefully petitioning the government is a false argument. I do not say that to demean you, I simply say it as I see it :-)
The Scriptures do not cover every subject under the sun. For example, the Scriptures do not say "Thou shalt not smoke." If the Scriptures do not specifically deny a certain practise, then we are free to do as we see fit? If a group like the tea party is run by hateful radicals like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh who make their money by causing division, and then Christians join themselves to such a group, then the Scriptures that my sister mentioned earlier on come into play. Why should the salt of the earth join itself to bitter fruits? If Jesus says "pay your taxes," and does not allude to "fair taxes," (which could be anything a person decided it should be) then we should simply pay them. To protest the ruling authorities may not violate the constitution, but we Christians are bound by Scriptures, not man made laws. If man made laws are followed and it leads us to violate clear teaching from Jesus, then we are not criminals in the eyes of the Law, we are simply followng the old heresy of "antinominism." ( a flagrant disregard of God's teachings).......Frank

 2009/4/17 20:25
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 605
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re: What ruler are you reading into the scriptures?

I believe that I can clarify the differences on the scriptures that are being discussed here. I have a dear brother and friend from El Salvador who believes that it is wrong to participate in politics (voting, running for office, serving in government) in any way. I’ve tried to explain to him that the dirty political systems of Central America are very different from ours here. They have no “balance of powers” therefore, they stay poverty stricken from the greed and power abuse of the leaders.

WHAT MAKES AMERICA DIFFERENT?

Brother APPOLUS, if you are a citizen of the United States of America, you may very well read Mark 12:17 as: “Render to APPOLUS the things that are APPOLUS’, and to God the things that are God's.”

In reading the scripture, each one of us (some in different countries) realize that it is not Caesar that we are currently dealing with. We have to put another name there, because we don’t have Caesar here today. You are obviously replacing the word Caesar with “the United States Government”. [Unless you are sending your tax money to Italy, in an effort to honor Ceasar's descendants]

YOU are a very important part of the United States government! You are a very important part of the law making part of the government that you pay taxes to.

If you are a citizen of this country you have the heavy responsibility of making the decisions here!

To put it more simply: Suppose Appolus, KrispyKrittr, and KingJimmy were the ONLY 3 citizens of this country, and KingJimmy were the elected enforcer of the laws. As the enforcer, KingJimmy could only enforce the laws that the three of you made. If you, Appolus (in effect 1/3 king) decide to shut your mouth and have no input in laws being made, then KrispyKrittr, and KingJimmy will be making all of the laws for you to live by, and you will go on simply submitting to their laws. On the other hand, if you exercise your noble responsibility and voice your thoughts and vote, you can change the laws that you have to live by.

I am not trying to rewrite, nor tamper with God’s sacred word here, but we HAVE TO ask: “who is the ruler here?” and we have to put his name in that place in the scripture in order to obey it. Whether we shirk our responsibility as rulers in this country or not, WE ARE WHAT WE ARE, because the laws of our government have made us such:

Romans 13:3 For APPOLUS is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For APPOLUS is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for APPOLUS is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: APPOLUS is God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

We can point our fingers and talk about all of the bad things that “our government” is doing, but the guilt falls equally on us. We have been given specific guidelines about how we are to influence the laws of our land (as has been stated in other posts on this thread).

If Appolus remains silent, then KrispyKrittr, and KingJimmy will make the rules. KingJimmy will enforce them, but we will all live by them. Although we are many millions more than just the three . . . this is how it is. IN REALITY, there are ONLY FOUR simple groups ruling this country:

Real Christians who remain silent.
Real Christians who exercise their noble responsibilities,
Sinners who remain silent, and
Sinners who exercise their noble responsibilities.

Those who remain silent are in full authority to participate in governing this country, but they choose not to exercise that authority . . . like a parent who has full authority to discipline his child, but chooses not to . . . to the ruin of the child.

We are at a pivotal moment in history with this government, however. If we act on our citizen noble responsibilities, we might be able to keep it from becoming a government ruled by a dictator like Ceasar. If we remain silent . . . . . . . .but how in all good conscience can we do so?


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2009/4/17 20:52Profile





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