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 Re:

No Kingjimmy, I dont think that I am, I am simply reading Scriptures and looking to see what they say about taxes. There are no degrees of taxes that the Scripture talks about. Jesus did not say "render unto Caesur what you consider to be reasonable and unto God what is His." What part of what Jesus said do you agree with? And the Scripture from Romans, what part do you agree or disagree with?. If you agree with what they say then the issue is finished for a Christian. If you believe that it means something different than I have put forth, I would be interested to hear your interpretations of these Scriptures. People change, attitudes change, but the Scriptures remain the same.........Frank

 2009/4/17 12:04
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Bro. Frank,

You are misinterpreting what Christ said, and thus misinterpreting my stance and that of others. Nobody is questioning whether or not we should render to Caesar's what is Caesar's. We most certainly should. But being that we don't live under a dictatorship, and in a government that encourages its citizens to participate in its decisions, and to offer opinions as to what it should do, that is all we are doing.

We are simply saying, yes, we will pay taxes. But if we are allowed a legitimate voice to say what those rates will be, Jesus and the Jews were not allowed, we are, then we would be poor stewards of God's money too simply quiet our voices and allow the government to do whatever they wanted to do with God's money.

Be careful not to practice eisegesis, that is, reading one's interpretation of a passage into a Scripture. The passages you have cited thus far have only said we ARE to pay taxes, and nothing more. I appreciate your heartfelt sincerity on this issue and welcome any insights you may have. But brother, in my opinion, you are not rightly handling the Scriptures in what you have cited thus far.


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Jimmy H

 2009/4/17 12:11Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

By the way, Jesus didn't like having to pay taxes either. :-)


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Jimmy H

 2009/4/17 12:18Profile









 Re:

I quoted the exact Scripture Jimmy. I added nothing to it. I did not create an argument from silence, I simply quoted Jesus and again Paul in Romans. If you have any other Scripture that you would like to quote in defence of protesting how much taxes we should pay, then I would be glad to consider those and give an opinion. Do you know how many political systems there have been since the time of Jesus? Constantly changing. I know that we would both agree that the one thing that does not change is the Scriptures, we know that heavan and earth will pass away but His word shall remain forever. So, we know what Jesus said. We know what the Holy Spirit says in Romans and we know who was in charge when it was written and we also know that the money was not spent on anything Godly as we would consider it, in fact much of it was spent persecuting Christians. That is waht we know, that is what I have stated. Again, if you believe that you know something that would put a different slant on this, backed up by Scvripture, I would dearly love to hear it, I truly would. All I have heard up to now is opinion , which is fine and we are all entitled to that, and we all have one, but it is Scripture that is a Lamp unto our feet, not men's opinion. Now, if you have a different interpretation on the Scriptures mentioned, or other Scriptures that would qualify Christians being involved in protests against the paying of a certain amount of taxes, then please share so that we can all see and give a comment on them........brother Frank

 2009/4/17 12:46
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Hi appolus,

I think I speak for Jimmy and myself when I say that we both do both pay taxes, therefore, still fulfilling the command to render unto Caeser what it is Caesar's. And, we are still submitting to our government obeying its laws per Romans 13.

However, as Jimmy noted, it is nowhere forbidden in the Scriptures to peacefully seek that the government change its practices. In fact, it is in the first Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that the people have the right to petition the government for a "redress of grievances". That is exactly what the tea partys are. A petition to the government for the redress of the grievance of unjust spending habits and thus, unjust taxation. We are completely obeying our government in exercising this right that has been granted to us by the Constitution, which is the supreme civil law in the land of these United States. So, in summary, it is perfectly acceptable to petition the government. It is legal, and it is peaceful.

Secondly, the current economic system, in my understanding, is sinful. It is a breach of God's commandment not to steal. How do I come to this conclusion? Inflation. For instance, say I work and save $10,000 and place it in a savings account. When I go to retrieve that $10,000 in 30 years, does it have the same purchasing power that it had when I put it in? No, it doesn't. The government has overspent, and participated in inflationary practices such as bailouts, thus driving the purchasing power of our money down. It is a hidden theft from the American people.

Thus, we petition the government to redress this greviance by adopting sound economic policies, as is our Constitutional right. And, we petition them to turn from this sinful method of stealing the earned money of the American people.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/4/17 13:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
it is nowhere forbidden in the Scriptures to peacefully seek that the government change its practices.



Our only example of the seperateness of what Jesus taught and the lives of the First Church - being our Only example - can only be found in the New Testament.

Can you show me where one could find any example in the NT where anyone tried in any way to "change government"?

We cannot make "doctrine" adding it 'to' Scripture out of the constitution nor any other Govennment documents because they are constantly changing these - for one thing and will continue through Courts, Executive Orders and so forth to change them --- so where do we draw the line on defending these Original Documents or are we not to be entangled mentally at all with the things of This World?

Asking in peace Brothers. No offense intended, but my mind is on the daily news and the changes to All policy I've seen in 50 yr.s - so far and it's only speeding up.

God Bless you.

 2009/4/17 13:30
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Thanks for the response, brother.

The bottom line is, I don't have to come up with an example in the New Testament of someone who peaceably tried to change the government's practices by petition, just as I don't have to prove that someone in the New Testament wore socks. In our daily lives, we have the freedom to act within the freedom granted by the moral law of God. And, since God nowhere forbids the peaceful petition of a government, neither can man forbid it. It is a matter of Christian liberty. The burden of proof is on those who feel we are out of line to prove that it is specifically forbidden in the Scriptures to peacefully petition the government, and, in my opinion, this is something they cannot do.

No doctrine has been created. In Romans 13, we are told to obey our leaders. The writers of our Constitution specifically told us we had the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances, therefore, we are perfectly within the law of God to exercise this right. We are still obeying the government.

Being "not of this world" does not mean withdrawing from worldly affairs or not being concerned about the "kingdom of man". It means that our minds are renewed, we do not think in a worldly way, and we do not live in a worldly way. We strive to promote truth, justice, and righteousness in the world and we do so using the lawful, peaceful means we have available.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/4/17 13:48Profile









 Re:

I understand Brother. Thank you for your kind reply.

I suppose I'm just feeling a protective spirit over the Body.
Many are following folks like Alex Jones, etc. that are putting thoughts that are contrary to Scripture into their minds as far as "activism" goes and "rights".

It's one thing to report what one can "document" as "News" and it's totally another thing to hype folks to "activism".

I wish since the early 70's that we had had as much "activism" over Abortion and this country looking the other way over persecution of Christians in CHINA and other countries or against TORTURE.

Those are three things that I would be willing to be "digitally photographed" at any "peaceful gathering" to raise my voice Against.

I wonder if GOD will ask us what DID we protest and what DIDN'T we protest while we were on earth as Christians.

How much have we raised our voice against these nations that persecute believers?

I suppose I'm thinking of the last so many verses in Matthew 25 and weighing them against what we 'are' doing, compared to what we are 'not' doing.

I worry about what is 'on' our minds compared to what isn't.

I'll have to let this drop to each man's personal convictions.
I do not want to be a cause of division here.

In Him

 2009/4/17 14:02
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3159


 Re:

If God is in control of all things, and He is allowing this "taxation" to happen, and we join others in physically "protesting" this "taxation" are we not actually "protesting" against our Lord?

And if others that we have enjoined ourselves to turn to violence, are we not also participating in that violence simply by the fact that we have chosen to identify ourselves with them?

Are we not rather commanded to pray?

 2009/4/17 14:50Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

[i]If God is in control of all things, and He is allowing this "taxation" to happen, and we join others in physically "protesting" this "taxation" are we not actually "protesting" against our Lord?[/i]

Of course God is in control of all things. However, using this kind of logic you present, we would be "protesting against our Lord" by protesting against abortion.

[i]And if others that we have enjoined ourselves to turn to violence, are we not also participating in that violence simply by the fact that we have chosen to identify ourselves with them?[/i]

If others turn to violence, we can refrain from participating. But, as a movement in general, the tea parties were non-violent.

[i]Are we not rather commanded to pray?[/i]

We are commanded to pray. But, we are not command to pray to the exclusion of other efforts to promote justice and righteousness in the land. Notice the command given to the Jews in exile in Jeremiah 29:7 - [i]But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.[/i]. We are to pray for the land we live in, however, we are also to actively seek its welfare. We do this by promoting truth, righteousness, and justice. Or, by promoting the moral law of God.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/4/17 15:09Profile





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