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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Procterandgambleites

IT JUST IS NOT WORKING!

Inner-City Christian Discernment Ministry has also posted information on just how physically sick modern healers get. These healers also regularly seek medical attention for themselves and their family. It is one of their best-kept secrets although the facts are slowly leaking out.

In ICCDM’s report entitled “It’s Not Working For Them Either!” they chronicle:

• the deaths of John Wimber and his son Chris, both of whom died of cancer;

• E.W. Kenyon died in a coma with a malignant tumor;

• John Osteen sought medical help for his wife Dodie’s cancer;

• Word-Faith publisher Buddy Harrison died of cancer;

• Fred Price got chemotherapy for his wife. He did not name it and claim it.

Further, ICCDM reminds us that Jamie Buckingham died of cancer and Charles Capps’ wife got medical treatment for her cancer, as did Joyce Meyer. Mack Timberlake is getting medical attention for throat cancer and healer R.W. Shambach, who regularly tells his gullible followers, “You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God,” has had a quadruple bypass. Add to that, Prophet Keith Grayton who died of AIDS complications, Kenneth Hagin’s sister who died of cancer, Hagin’s wife who was operated on and Hagin himself who wears glasses and you begin to see the hypocrisy.

The list goes on and on. Kathryn Kuhlman died of heart disease. A.A. Allen died from alcohol abuse and Aimee Semple McPherson died from an overdose of barbiturates. John Lake died of a stroke and Gordon Lindsey of a heart condition. Daisy Osborn died of cancer that she claimed was healed. How does one explain this since all the above claim healing powers and special visitations from God? Self-deluded? Or just deluding others?

What about the other “miracle workers”? Robert Tilton dealt with lawsuits, lies and divorces while he collected millions. Peter Popoff was exposed by the secular world as a fraud when it was revealed his “words of knowledge” were received through an electronic earpiece. Leroy Jenkins was convicted for tax fraud. Jimmy Swaggert is a serial adulterer and multimillionaire. W.V. Grant was jailed for tax fraud and has divorced his wife. The world of televangelists is a sick, dysfunctional and sinful world.

These people claim that they have seen Jesus, seen angels, have extraordinary powers, are the anointed of God and the recipients of direct revelation. Charisma magazine touts them as Christian leaders, apostles and miracle workers and tries to give them credibility through smoke and mirrors using fantastic stories, unproven claims and slick advertisements. It is such a sham. Based on the above it should not be hard for the reader to decide what is really going on.

REAL JEWELS

Kathryn Kuhlman gave false hope, which is worse than no hope at all. Quadriplegic Joni Eareckson Tada recounts her experiences:

“And so, when I was released from the hospital, my friends would drive me to Washington, D.C., so I could be first in line at the door whenever the famous faith-healer, Kathryn Kuhlman, came to town. Miss Kuhlman breezed onto the stage in her white gown, and my heart raced as I prayed, [i]Lord, the Bible says you heal all our diseases. I’m ready for you to get me out of this wheelchair. Please would you?”[/i]6

Tada goes on:

“God answered: I never walked away from my chair. The last time I wheeled away from a Kathryn Kuhlman crusade, I was number fifteen in a line of thirty wheelchair-users waiting to exit at the stadium elevator, all of us trying to make a fast escape ahead of the people on crutches. I remember glancing around at all the disappointed and confused people and thinking, [i]Something’s wrong with this picture. Is this the only way to deal with suffering? Trying to desperately remove it?”[/i]7

Wheelchairs in a meeting are incredible props and powerful symbolic tools even if nothing happens. They create great effect for healers. W.V. Grant used to truck them in for effect. In Canada, architects have hung them on the pillars at St. Anne’s Church in perfect symmetry.

When the chips are down, the “biggest” names don’t come through — Oral Roberts prayed for Kathryn Kuhlman in the hospital twice. She was resuscitated by hospital staff twice but the enlarged heart she carried for more than 20 years finally gave out. Kuhlman pulled in an income of $1 million a year and died with a vault full of jewels.8 Joni Eareckson Tada will get her jewels in heaven.

Tada shares the sad aftermath of the healing crusades:

“I wonder how many of those sullen-faced folks at the elevator after the healing crusade still believe in God? That was almost thirty years ago. Are they still waiting in line? Still hoping? ‘Hope deferred makes the heart sick,’ and a heart can break only so many times.”9

Faith healer Benny Hinn, who claims to receive “anointings” at the grave sites of Kuhlman and McPherson, has fostered deceptions that are crass and blatant but very well-documented. His claims of surviving a plane crash unscathed do not match up with the law enforcement report which details the accident. The heroin-overdose deaths within his own organization show his impotence. His constant threats of lawsuits and cursing of detractors’ children show his spiritual bankruptcy. His claims of raising the dead have all been shown to be lies.

The banter can even turn rude, crude, vile and vulgar. Take the comments of Hinn’s wife, Suzanne, who is now “ministering” with her husband: “You need a Holy Ghost enema,” she told her former Orlando congregation. The rest we will leave out. Shortly after that she charged back and forth across the stage hollering into the microphone and did a big belly flop on stage to the howling delight of her audience.

Clips of the above were run on Comedy Central’s [i]The Daily Show[/i] for all the world to see and ridicule.10 It has provided Hinn with another black monetary hole of legal expenses in his empty threats of lawsuits against the network and [i]The Daily Show[/i] producers. It gives every Christian a bad name.

According to 1 Timothy 3:4-5, an elder is to rule his house well. If he cannot rule his house, he cannot rule the Church. At the very least Hinn could have his wife apologize, clean up her act and stop belly-flopping on stage.

How the shocking banter of Mrs. Hinn must grieve the Holy Spirit. Her husband at times has threatened those who disagree with him with suggestions that they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He even once called for a “Holy Ghost machine gun” to blow off the heads of his detractors. However, the suggestions of his wife may be very near blaspheming or at least seriously degrading and mocking the Holy Spirit. Yet there has not been an outcry from Hinn’s following.

Is the Charismatic world getting so jaded that nothing shocks it any more? Hinn has gone from getting an anointing at graveyards to full-blown necromancy (added to his lies and false prophecies) and his crowds only get bigger.11

One of the ways deception is promoted is by the terrible misuse and twisting of Scripture to try to shore up wild claims.

There has been a constant misuse of Jeremiah 31:22, “for the Lord has created a new thing in the earth.” We have been told that each new excess is that “new thing.” Holy laughter was described as the new thing. Various “revivals” and bodily manifestations were touted as the new thing. Some are claiming the new thing is yet to arrive.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT

Invariably, cults spawn false doctrine by using proof texts out of context. Extremists were saying that revival was sweeping the land and we could expect to see anything because God was going to do a new thing. But just as Peter warned, they are twisting the Scriptures to say that the new thing is anything they proclaim it to be, no matter how wild or weird.

The “new thing” is foretold in Jeremiah 31:22. In verse 31, the “new thing” is clearly expounded and explained as follows, “Behold the days are coming says the Lord, when I will make a [i]new covenant[/i] with the house of Israel.” So the new thing is [i]the New Covenant[/i].

Charismatic extremism, I believe, is trying to rob us of the new covenant. Keil and Delitzsch work out all the contextual nuances in the Hebrew text of Jeremiah 31 and conclude that the new thing is not some emotional experience, but that “Herein is expressed a new relation of Israel to the Lord, a reference to a new covenant which the Lord, ver. 31ff., will conclude with His people.”12

The so-called “new thing” of frenzies, manifestations, spastic fits, and out-of-control emotions is, in fact, not new at all but a reproduction of bizarre behavior that cropped up in the Church periodically and was soundly condemned when it did. Whether it be the Camisard “prophets” of 1706 or the other outbreaks of the 18th century, strong words were used against the excesses and the Bible upheld as the only source of truth.13

Having seen the reality of deception we need to try to understand secondly, the roots of deception.


[i]Cont.[/i]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/4/12 9:07Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Procterandgambleites

WHYS OF GULLIBILITY

Why are Christians so gullible and so prone to deception? What could possibly be behind it?

First, because the foundation of the Christian life is belief. However, that we can believe the wrong things is made abundantly clear by the Bible. We must know what we believe and why and that we are believing the right things. We cannot just believe anything. Our objects of faith must be God and His Word, not mere men or wild claims. Dr. Bruce Bickel reminds us:

“Too often what passes for unity is really compromise. It is better to be divided by truth than united in error.”14

Second, the Christian is commanded to love. Love tends to be accepting and is willing to overlook. However, love that is not structured in truth is sentimentalism and is so wishy-washy it can be manipulated and led astray.

We cannot confuse love and emotionalism or love and feelings. Love is a commitment to truth and the highest good of others. Love does, as Scripture attests, “cover a multitude of sins.”15 At times, that love means bringing a sinner back from the error of his ways.16 Love will not tolerate false teachings or lies which in the end hurt and destroy others. Biblical love insists on truth and true doctrine. Bickel has the correct take on love:

“Love, true love, cannot be divorced from truth. Scripture is quite clear that love rejoices in the truth! One cannot claim to love when one is not concerned about truth. The truth of Scripture must be the concern of one who truly loves.”17

Third, we have a tendency to want to believe Christian leaders and Hebrews 13:7 indicates that generally we should. However the verse alerts us to be aware of their conduct as well. So it is not a blind following. Is the leadership we are following really modeling Christ and the Bible? Paul said we are to follow him [i]“as he followed Christ.”[/i] As commendable as it is to love and trust our leaders, we still have to be Bereans (Acts 17:11) and test [i]all[/i] messages against Scripture. We do our leaders a great service by being mutually accountable. Leaders are vulnerable without the help and balance of others.

Fourth, we can be brainwashed by religious television and are being told that to question is “heresy hunting” or it is a “religious spirit” or “white cane religion” or a “Jezebel spirit” or worse. We are cowed by being threatened with the possibility of committing the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit even though we are just trying to be discerning. We should not be manipulated by a turning of the tables and a guilt trip laid on us for questioning heresy. We should not be in a church where there is no accountability or church discipline. In that setting, unrepentant sinners and autocrats are “above the law.”

[i]Regrettably, very little stress is being put on the gift of discernment[/i]. All Christians are called to be discerning. We must check things out (1 John 4:1-6). More credibility needs to be given to legitimate countercult organizations (and their struggle and sacrifice) so that “iron can sharpen iron.” Good apologetic groups not only expose error, they keep teaching truth and keep laying a good foundation of doctrine which is so desperately needed today.

Fifth, it is hard for us to believe or imagine that slick magazines such as [i]Charisma[/i] could be peddling deception and that such wonderful ministries (as being advertised) could not be on the up and up. It is hard for us to believe that “Christian” bookstores could be part of the problem. It is hard for us to believe that all the money being made is the reason for the collusion (and the advancement of the wild and weird). It is amazing that books teaching occult doctrine are now being marketed as “Christian classics.”

Sixth, perverted and unbiblical views that forgiveness means we put up with and overlook everything, even ongoing sin and disgrace. The word “repentance” is being milked and used to justify all manner of evil. True repentance will issue out in biblical change (Matthew 3:8, Acts 26:20, 2 Corinthians 7:9-11).

Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 indicate that continuing sin and false teaching is not to be dealt with by forgiveness (unless there is repentance) but by a process of church discipline with a view to restoration. Love covering a multitude of sin cannot be taken to mean that we dump our blankets in the cesspool rather than try to clean it up.

Seventh, there is an enemy of our souls who goes about like a “roaring lion” (1 Peter 5:8). Satan is a master deceiver and we are called to put on the armor of God and confront his reasonings and errors and bring our thoughts into captivity and in alignment to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

Albert Barnes says it so well:

“Every power of thought in the heathen world; all the systems of philosophy, and all forms of opinion among men; all the purposes of the soul; all the powers of reason, memory, judgment, fancy, in an individual, were all to come under the laws of Christ. All [i]doctrines[/i] were to be in accordance with his will; philosophy should no longer control them, but they should be subject to the will of Christ. ... All [i]the emotions and feelings of the heart[/i] should be controlled by him, and led by him as a captive is led by a victor. ... The strongholds of philosophy, heathenism, and sin should be demolished, and all the opinions, plans, and purposes of the world should become subject to the all-conquering Redeemer.”18

Eighth, the Scriptures predict there would be a departure from the faith because of seducing spirits and doctrines of demons and that people would opt for myths and fables over the truth (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 2 Timothy 4:1-4). Jesus warned of deception in Matthew 24:24.

Though this writer does not agree with everything Helmut Thielicke taught, his words at the end of World War II come to mind:

“In our time we have come far too much in contact with demonic powers, we have sensed and seen much too clearly how mysterious and abysmal forces have seduced people and entire movements and steered them [in a direction] they themselves did not desire; we have all too often observed how an alien spirit has taken hold of people who had perhaps been quite nice and reasonable before.”19

Ninth, because we are being conditioned by our culture and television, we have lost the ability to blush. Everything and anything is paraded before us in the media as being permissible for our mental diet. Murder, immorality, shock radio, abuse, perversion — nothing is off-limits. Nothing shocks us or grieves us. Our culture is becoming satiated and dulled and we are affected. Young people are piercing, branding and mutilating their bodies. Some seek even vampirism as an option.

Some in the Charismatic world need still more frenzy, wilder manifestations and altered states of consciousness to satisfy and then they keep going back for more “anointings.” They are spiritually and emotionally jaded. They are hooked not on heroin but on adrenalin. So many are addicted to emotions and emotional highs. Many burn out spiritually in their quest.

Tenth, we have become a culture of hero-worshipers and celebrity-seekers. Evangelical heroes and popular writers and speakers dictate, are given total allegiance and followed like rock stars. Like the Corinthians, we say we are of Paul and Apollos and Cephas (1 Corinthians 3:4). People have been led to believe that only the “biggies” carry the “anointing.” And if you want “it” you’ve got to come to them to receive it. “Fresh,” “Fire,” “New Wine” and every other brand and flavor of anointing are available to the Christian consumer.

Eleventh, we have substituted entertainment and “television religion” for a growing and intense serving relationship in a healthy, well-balanced church. Being in the presence of growing Christians in a doctrinally sound church is a wonderful reality check needed by all. Vibrant fellowship (including worship and Bible study) is an antidote to illusion and deception. We are full of blind spots and need others to help us make up areas in our pockets of deficiency and ignorance. Stray sheep are not only arrogant, they are very vulnerable.

Proverbs 27:17 forcefully reminds us: “As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.” To stay sharp, balanced and informed, one must take the words of Hebrews 10:23-25 very seriously and be a vital part of a vital fellowship. People have abandoned the church looking for a supernatural quick fix.

Twelfth, people have become “cliché-bound.” They are gullible and become easily subservient if someone says, “God told me,” or “the Lord said,” or “the Lord spoke to me,” or “the Lord impressed upon me.” After all, who can argue with God? The Church finds itself drowning in a sea of subjectivism away from the safe moorings of the objective Word of God! “I feel” and “I sense” have come to replace, “It is written.”

The power of the cliché is explained by Peter Berger:

“Once a cliché is firmly established in the minds of a particular group of people, it attains the quality of taken-for-granted truth and is very difficult to dislodge even by clear empirical counter-evidence. Human beings do not like to be confronted with what the psychologists call cognitive dissonance (‘I have made up my mind; don’t confuse me with the facts’). What is more, thinking in general and rethinking in particular are fairly painful processes, and most people prefer to avoid this pain. The plausibility of a cliché does not depend on the amount or the quality of the evidence for it, but on the way it meets the social and psychic needs of a particular situation.”20

[i]Cont.[/i]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/4/13 9:00Profile









 Re: Proctorandgambleites

Greetings Mike,

I am trying to work out if you're posting these articles and chapters because you agree with them as they are, or, you are hoping to open up discussion on their content.

Several things strike me about the use of language and humour - as if raising a smile constitutes evidence on the part of the author; the assumptions that the authors' scepticism qualifies as 'evidence'; or that the fleeting references to biblical 'conspiracy' in the VanDruff offering, covers the extent to which the Bible does actually refer to conspiracies (agreements between two or more people).

Then, there is this - which doesn't [i]seem[/i] to have any biblical support at all:

Quote:
Inner-City Christian Discernment Ministry reports on Rod Parsley’s “Whopper.” Parsley sent his constituents a letter dated April 2, 1999, in which he claimed to heal a man of full-blown AIDS. No name, address or documentation was given. It was just a tall tale.

I have racked my brain for one name of someone Jesus healed apart from Legion, who technically was delivered in the first instance. Who else can you name?

I have always thought this was a kindness of scripture, to protect the identities of those who were so intimately exposed by the narrative.

Am I really expected to doubt this healing - not knowing anything else about Rod Parsley - on the strength that his witholding of the name of the previously sick person, unequivocally determines that no-one was healed? The author can then claim Rod Parsley lied?

I have even more difficulty with his logic, having heard Norman Meeten testify about a couple in a certain place, who were [i]both[/i] healed of AIDS. Now, I think he did name them, and the place they were at, but, is the doubt expressed regarding Rod Parsley's claim more about the possibility of the healing of AIDS, or, about the lack of a secular standard of 'evidence'?

I thought this was a rather telling comment:

Quote:
Our hearts are where our treasure has gone.

It certainly undermines the author's credibility.

Quote:
The Bible does not go into a lot of intricate detail as to the psychology of deception

I simply do not agree. This is a [i]wildly[/i] inaccurate statement, requiring a much closer look at the attributes of the [u]many[/u] conspiracies which [i]are[/i] described in scripture. Don't you think?

 2009/4/13 16:43
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Procterandgambleites

Hello brother,

Will do my best here ...

Quote:
I am trying to work out if you're posting these articles and chapters because you agree with them as they are, or, you are hoping to open up discussion on their content.



Discussion is always open and encouraged - I would not agree with every nuance of some of these articles and excerpts but just allow them to speak on their own - It's a painting of sorts as I mentioned earlier - Using broads strokes in a general fashion. It's all hinged and centered on one word, the theme if you will. The next installment will expand on it some more.

Quote:
I have racked my brain for one name of someone Jesus healed apart from Legion, who technically was delivered in the first instance. Who else can you name?

I have always thought this was a kindness of scripture, to protect the identities of those who were so intimately exposed by the narrative.

Am I really expected to doubt this healing - not knowing anything else about Rod Parsley - on the strength that his witholding of the name of the previously sick person, unequivocally determines that no-one was healed? The author can then claim Rod Parsley lied?



Not really sure if that was with an intentionality, to withhold names as you mentioned - Jairus daughter comes to mind, though her name is not given specifically, those who knew him would know her name, just as others that were healed would know by acquaintance, community, etc.

There is also;

[i]And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.[/i] 1Co 15:4-6

Paul's inference is certainly one where could go and speak to those who were still alive - Question them, 'investigate' if you will.

Here is a bit more on the "Whopper" story;

[url=http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newpage17.htm]Rod Parsley's "Whopper"[/url]

Quote:
[i]The Bible does not go into a lot of intricate detail as to the psychology of deception[/i]

I simply do not agree. This is a wildly inaccurate statement, requiring a much closer look at the attributes of the many conspiracies which are described in scripture. Don't you think?



"Intricate detail" - I do not find it wildly inaccurate. Taken it's context [i]the psychology of deception[/i] is not gone into in great length in scripture. But I think this is really parsing words at the expense of the greater issue at hand.



_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/4/14 9:42Profile









 Re: Procterandgambleites

Greetings Mike,

Your reply is appreciated, and the link to the Rod Parsley reference.

I shall wait for the next instalment for further illumination on that 'one word', before expanding on the thought that 'instricate detail' is somewhat of a straw man which saves the author examining even the best-documented deceptions (in the Bible) with honest academic application.

 2009/4/15 6:03
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Procterandgambleites

WHYS OF GULLIBILITY

Why are Christians so gullible and so prone to deception? What could possibly be behind it?

First, because the foundation of the Christian life is belief. However, that we can believe the wrong things is made abundantly clear by the Bible. We must know what we believe and why and that we are believing the right things. We cannot just believe anything. Our objects of faith must be God and His Word, not mere men or wild claims. Dr. Bruce Bickel reminds us:

“Too often what passes for unity is really compromise. It is better to be divided by truth than united in error.”14

Second, the Christian is commanded to love. Love tends to be accepting and is willing to overlook. However, love that is not structured in truth is sentimentalism and is so wishy-washy it can be manipulated and led astray.

We cannot confuse love and emotionalism or love and feelings. Love is a commitment to truth and the highest good of others. Love does, as Scripture attests, “cover a multitude of sins.”15 At times, that love means bringing a sinner back from the error of his ways.16 Love will not tolerate false teachings or lies which in the end hurt and destroy others. Biblical love insists on truth and true doctrine. Bickel has the correct take on love:

“Love, true love, cannot be divorced from truth. Scripture is quite clear that love rejoices in the truth! One cannot claim to love when one is not concerned about truth. The truth of Scripture must be the concern of one who truly loves.”17

Third, we have a tendency to want to believe Christian leaders and Hebrews 13:7 indicates that generally we should. However the verse alerts us to be aware of their conduct as well. So it is not a blind following. Is the leadership we are following really modeling Christ and the Bible? Paul said we are to follow him [i]“as he followed Christ.”[/i] As commendable as it is to love and trust our leaders, we still have to be Bereans (Acts 17:11) and test [i]all[/i] messages against Scripture. We do our leaders a great service by being mutually accountable. Leaders are vulnerable without the help and balance of others.

Fourth, we can be brainwashed by religious television and are being told that to question is “heresy hunting” or it is a “religious spirit” or “white cane religion” or a “Jezebel spirit” or worse. We are cowed by being threatened with the possibility of committing the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit even though we are just trying to be discerning. We should not be manipulated by a turning of the tables and a guilt trip laid on us for questioning heresy. We should not be in a church where there is no accountability or church discipline. In that setting, unrepentant sinners and autocrats are “above the law.”

[i]Regrettably, very little stress is being put on the gift of discernment.[/i] All Christians are called to be discerning. We must check things out (1 John 4:1-6). More credibility needs to be given to legitimate countercult organizations (and their struggle and sacrifice) so that “iron can sharpen iron.” Good apologetic groups not only expose error, they keep teaching truth and keep laying a good foundation of doctrine which is so desperately needed today.

Fifth, it is hard for us to believe or imagine that slick magazines such as [i]Charisma[/i] could be peddling deception and that such wonderful ministries (as being advertised) could not be on the up and up. It is hard for us to believe that “Christian” bookstores could be part of the problem. It is hard for us to believe that all the money being made is the reason for the collusion (and the advancement of the wild and weird). It is amazing that books teaching occult doctrine are now being marketed as “Christian classics.”

Sixth, perverted and unbiblical views that forgiveness means we put up with and overlook everything, even ongoing sin and disgrace. The word “repentance” is being milked and used to justify all manner of evil. True repentance will issue out in biblical change (Matthew 3:8, Acts 26:20, 2 Corinthians 7:9-11).

Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 indicate that continuing sin and false teaching is not to be dealt with by forgiveness (unless there is repentance) but by a process of church discipline with a view to restoration. Love covering a multitude of sin cannot be taken to mean that we dump our blankets in the cesspool rather than try to clean it up.

Seventh, there is an enemy of our souls who goes about like a “roaring lion” (1 Peter 5:8). Satan is a master deceiver and we are called to put on the armor of God and confront his reasonings and errors and bring our thoughts into captivity and in alignment to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

Albert Barnes says it so well:

“Every power of thought in the heathen world; all the systems of philosophy, and all forms of opinion among men; all the purposes of the soul; all the powers of reason, memory, judgment, fancy, in an individual, were all to come under the laws of Christ. All [i]doctrines[/i] were to be in accordance with his will; philosophy should no longer control them, but they should be subject to the will of Christ. ... All [i]the emotions and feelings of the heart[/i] should be controlled by him, and led by him as a captive is led by a victor. ... The strongholds of philosophy, heathenism, and sin should be demolished, and all the opinions, plans, and purposes of the world should become subject to the all-conquering Redeemer.”18

Eighth, the Scriptures predict there would be a departure from the faith because of seducing spirits and doctrines of demons and that people would opt for myths and fables over the truth (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 2 Timothy 4:1-4). Jesus warned of deception in Matthew 24:24.

Though this writer does not agree with everything Helmut Thielicke taught, his words at the end of World War II come to mind:

“In our time we have come far too much in contact with demonic powers, we have sensed and seen much too clearly how mysterious and abysmal forces have seduced people and entire movements and steered them [in a direction] they themselves did not desire; we have all too often observed how an alien spirit has taken hold of people who had perhaps been quite nice and reasonable before.”19

Ninth, because we are being conditioned by our culture and television, we have lost the ability to blush. Everything and anything is paraded before us in the media as being permissible for our mental diet. Murder, immorality, shock radio, abuse, perversion — nothing is off-limits. Nothing shocks us or grieves us. Our culture is becoming satiated and dulled and we are affected. Young people are piercing, branding and mutilating their bodies. Some seek even vampirism as an option.

Some in the Charismatic world need still more frenzy, wilder manifestations and altered states of consciousness to satisfy and then they keep going back for more “anointings.” They are spiritually and emotionally jaded. They are hooked not on heroin but on adrenalin. So many are addicted to emotions and emotional highs. Many burn out spiritually in their quest.

Tenth, we have become a culture of hero-worshipers and celebrity-seekers. Evangelical heroes and popular writers and speakers dictate, are given total allegiance and followed like rock stars. Like the Corinthians, we say we are of Paul and Apollos and Cephas (1 Corinthians 3:4). People have been led to believe that only the “biggies” carry the “anointing.” And if you want “it” you’ve got to come to them to receive it. “Fresh,” “Fire,” “New Wine” and every other brand and flavor of anointing are available to the Christian consumer.

Eleventh, we have substituted entertainment and “television religion” for a growing and intense serving relationship in a healthy, well-balanced church. Being in the presence of growing Christians in a doctrinally sound church is a wonderful reality check needed by all. Vibrant fellowship (including worship and Bible study) is an antidote to illusion and deception. We are full of blind spots and need others to help us make up areas in our pockets of deficiency and ignorance. Stray sheep are not only arrogant, they are very vulnerable.

Proverbs 27:17 forcefully reminds us: “As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.” To stay sharp, balanced and informed, one must take the words of Hebrews 10:23-25 very seriously and be a vital part of a vital fellowship. People have abandoned the church looking for a supernatural quick fix.

Twelfth, people have become “cliché-bound.” They are gullible and become easily subservient if someone says, “God told me,” or “the Lord said,” or “the Lord spoke to me,” or “the Lord impressed upon me.” After all, who can argue with God? The Church finds itself drowning in a sea of subjectivism away from the safe moorings of the objective Word of God! “I feel” and “I sense” have come to replace, “It is written.”

The power of the cliché is explained by Peter Berger:

“Once a cliché is firmly established in the minds of a particular group of people, it attains the quality of taken-for-granted truth and is very difficult to dislodge even by clear empirical counter-evidence. Human beings do not like to be confronted with what the psychologists call cognitive dissonance (‘I have made up my mind; don’t confuse me with the facts’). What is more, thinking in general and rethinking in particular are fairly painful processes, and most people prefer to avoid this pain. The plausibility of a cliché does not depend on the amount or the quality of the evidence for it, but on the way it meets the social and psychic needs of a particular situation.”20

*

[url=http://www.pfo.org/deceived.htm]Can You Be Deceived?[/url]

*Note - This article continues at the link above with "WORTHY IS THE LAMB" - While I had originaly intended to use excerpts had forgotten their own wishes noted at the bottom of the article.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/4/15 8:46Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Procterandgambleites

Quote:
Your reply is appreciated, and the link to the Rod Parsley reference.



Was in a bit of a rush yesterday and grabbed that reference somewhat on the fly - I do not know that this is the greatest example, just one that you happened to remark on. It also needs to be repeated that often the 'discernment ministries' need discernment ...

A better (read 'worse') example would be [url=http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-39-17Mhz.htm]The Investigation Of Peter Popoff[/url] who was exposed in the greatest of fashion and today is once again twisting his way about - [url=http://www.peterpopoff.org/]Peter Popoff[/url]

Most of the excerpts and articles here are dated - Though many of them also are carrying on presently along with the deceptions and proving the point of Christian gullibility. Popoff manages to alternately make my skin crawl and ...

Not shortly after he was exposed, probably a year or two after things cooled down I was taken back around Christmas time to stumble across him on 'Christian' television - He had his then teenage boy's dressed up nicely, seated on a couch while he hovered behind them, giving them each opportunity to express their ... thoughts on the occasion - [i]"Jesus is the reason for the season"[/i] said one with the greatest lack of sincerity I have ever seen, the others forced out some rehearsed comment as if they were being held hostage, reading a script. It was the most pathetic display I have ever seen- The smirks and disregard ... A very long time ago but it has stayed with me all these years.

But this is again only an example, I wanted to present all this in a wide variety of form, not only as a particular set of personalities.


[i]For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.[/i] Rom 2:24


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/4/15 9:18Profile









 Re: Proterandgambleites

Hello Mike,

I read to the end of the last link, but there were some comments on the Whopper claim, which I decided not to pursue.

M Scott Peck has an interesting analysis in Further Along the Road Less Travelled, of the kind of person who persists in what is basically criminal activity. I don't have the book to hand any more, but he described uncannily accurately the key attributes of character of a dodgy person with whom I had far too much to do in the past.

I notice you seem to be tackling more than one issue through these articles. For instance, whether a person's ministry is ordained by God is one thing which can be checked to some degree by measuring the testimony of their life both in and out of the spotlight, against scripture.

For instance, Peter's choice of 'filthy' to describe 'lucre', (1 Peter 5:2), echoed by Paul to Timothy and Titus twice each, for instance, is a clear line in the sand. I think this is one of your points. And,

Quote:
Christian gullibility

may be a natural consequence of a nominal belief system, lacking in the knowledge of God Himself through personal interaction with Him. Of course, this lack of personal knowledge may be a consequence of receiving His regularly being misrepresented on TV in the US. Even if not Bible knowledge, the indwelling Holy Spirit normally flags up to one's understanding, that all is not well with a person's heart, because of what one hears out of their mouth.

But on the matter of whether certain organisations exist, there was not much evidence that they [i]don't[/i] in the articles you've posted. Perhaps you should consider that some people come out of 'them' into the knowledge of Christ? Therefore, it may not be helpful (or fair), to question or to prevent (or disapprove of) such testimony being given - although it may be in very short supply(!) 1 Thess 1:9.

The case of the Ephesians is a good example of this, where they had been baptised in water in the name of Jesus, baptised in the Spirit and spoken in tongues after a false start with the baptism of John, [i][b]before[/b][/i] they were prompted by disturbing local events, to bring out the proof of their past occult activities, and burn them all together in testimony to the greater power of Jesus Christ. Some years had elapsed before Paul told them in Eph 5:12; Acts 19:18. The need for confession is not spoken against.

Again, I believe the Spirit of Truth either does or [i]cannot[/i] witness to what another 'Christian' claims as their experience of God. Nevertheless, let not genuine spiritual discernment be confused with uninformed cynicism towards uncomfortable truth, or undue skepticism towards the intricately detailed workings of God in a life.

 2009/4/16 7:17
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Procterandgambleites

Hello brother,

Quote:
I notice you seem to be tackling more than one issue through these articles. For instance, whether a person's ministry is ordained by God is one thing which can be checked to some degree by measuring the testimony of their life both in and out of the spotlight, against scripture.



I am, in the sense of the variety of things that can be taken as [i]Ipso facto[/i] without check, test ... common sense, that attribute that is seemingly uncommon anymore. I don't know that the measure is to start with whether or not something is ordained of God - This too often proves to be the counter argument of "[i]But[/i], look at all the [u]good[/u] they are doing." The inference being that it therefore [i]must[/i] be ordained of God. It really doesn't factor into the thought process, at least from the approach I would take to it.

Evidence is a very strong, key word in all these things. [i]Prove it[/i]. A great deal more could be said on this alone.

Quote:
[i]Christian gullibility[/i]

may be a natural consequence of a nominal belief system, lacking in the knowledge of God Himself through personal interaction with Him. Of course, this lack of personal knowledge may be a consequence of receiving His regularly being misrepresented on TV in the US. Even if not Bible knowledge, the indwelling Holy Spirit normally flags up to one's understanding, that all is not well with a person's heart, because of what one hears out of their mouth.



Without a doubt. I am my own example in this having come out from under a very mixed up ... beginning if you will. More than a few of the long timers here have a testimony of being duped - In my case it was a somewhat suppressed quagmire of the 'prosperity', 'name-it-claim-it' nonsense due to my wife's having been caught up in it when we first met and my long road of finally coming to an understanding of the truth. The church we attended was of the same and promoted the associated Benny Hinn's, Creeflo's Hickey's etc. We followed Benny around to his members only meetings (where more of the discomfort really began to manifest itself) and it wasn't until some other voices began to challenge much of this that the suppression gave way. A greater deal of these things has been written in these pages.

But that is not always the case, from a couple pages back;


[i]Festinger relates: "But whatever explanation is made it is still by itself not sufficient. The dissonance is too important and though they may try to hide it, even from themselves, the believers still know that the prediction was false and all their preparations were in vain. The dissonance cannot be eliminated completely by denying or rationalizing the disconfirmation. But there is a way in which the remaining dissonance can be reduced. If more and more people can be persuaded that the system of belief is correct, then clearly it must, after all, be correct. Consider the extreme case: if everyone in the whole world believed something there would be no question at all as to the validity of this belief. It is for this reason that we observe the increase in proselytizing following disconfirmation. If the proselytizing proves successful, then by gathering more adherents and effectively surrounding himself with supporters, the believer reduces dissonance to the point where he can live with it." 4[/i]

How true is this when previously exposed 'ministries' can lay dormant until the heat dissipates and return as if nothing has transpired, the many examples given here. The 'prophetic' mumbo-jumbo that has taken on it's own life form in recent years - catering to an never ending thirst for a fix from the likes of this crowd in their almost daily dispatches. As was mentioned elsewhere, who has the time and wherewithal to chase these things down and challenge\disprove-test them all? It would not be difficult in one sense, short of the time it would take, to go back to last year's utterances of one of these and ask, did these things come to pass? Is there any evidence whatsoever? But it is also that clever conundrum of lacking specifics in the first place that makes it all too easy to be lost in argument since they are so generally vague to begin with.

Quote:
But on the matter of whether certain organisations exist, there was not much evidence that they [i]don't[/i] in the articles you've posted. Perhaps you should consider that some people come out of 'them' into the knowledge of Christ? Therefore, it may not be helpful (or fair), to question or to prevent (or disapprove of) such testimony being given - although it may be in very short supply(!)



Think you threw me there in the first part of this, unless you were just emphasizing the obvious - But, yes the consideration to come out of 'them' [i]is[/i] very much a thrust as was alluded to already. But it is helpful I believe -It was the 'louder' more forceful, in the right sense, that got my attention - A John MacArthur -Even [i]The Bible Answer Man[/i] (Who I might now have some misgivings with) who appealed to the scriptures more than just a sort of whitewashing of 'personalities', even if they were made spectacle by doing so.

I think too often the emphasis gets unfairly shifted or latched unto. That is often a problem with the so called 'discernment ministries'- Even some of the things, the approaches in some of these articles, for instance the Rod Parsely link is more often dealing with the surface rather than the core. The core is what I was after here in the variety.

There is food for my own kitchen in all of this. I realize how susceptible I can still be to running imagination forward as fact, even in seemingly inconsequential matters. I think if were we honest with ourselves these notions are often bounding about in the grey matter. A few scant pieces and we are all ready to be Sherlock Holmes in our minds, 'knowing' what our spouse or friends are up to - What tomorrow will bring - And without any checks and balances our wires get crossed spiritually and then it's [i]The Lord ______[/i], is 'doing, saying', "speaking". It's "[i]This season[/i]" or "That [i]season[/i]". Add in a healthy dose of the news, (taken without test), and we are ready to pontificate on any matter that is before us [i]and[/i] pronounce the end results.

Quote:
Again, I believe the Spirit of Truth either does or cannot witness to what another 'Christian' claims as their experience of God. Nevertheless, let not genuine spiritual discernment be confused with uninformed cynicism towards uncomfortable truth, or undue skepticism towards the intricately detailed workings of God in a life.



Without a doubt. I realize the difficulty that can be introduced with putting doubts in the mind. There is a right and good doubting, a healthy suspicion that should cause that very Berean-like nobility to [i]test[/i] all things - I really think this has been given to much of a short shift and feel compelled to elaborate much more on it ... But what one 'knows' in their bowels should never be feared to be put to the test - In fact isn't it really the heart of the matter, a willingness to hold true truth, to coin a phrase?

My premise on the gullibility factor is on the one hand naturally, [i]do not be deceived[/i] but it is the purveyors, the 'teachers' who I have the greatest issue with. When people are earnestly seeking for truth, for honesty, for tangible reality they are as a matter of course opening themselves up to a certain vulnerability - That this is taken advantage of, manipulated, coerced and abused ...

Rambling.



_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/4/16 9:46Profile









 Re: Procterandgambleites

Hello again, Mike,

Since you haven't posted another article yet, I thought I would clarify to you in response to

Quote:
Think you threw me there in the first part of this, unless you were just emphasizing the obvious - But, yes the consideration to come out of 'them' is very much a thrust as was alluded to already.

Using your 'broad brushstrokes' picture, I was drawing a distinction between organisations which operate in darkness or shade invisibly to the 'church' and the world - generally described as occult, because they foster Satan's cause - on the existence of which some of the articles seem to cast doubt ('them'), and, false teachers and hirelings who are in the public eye of the world within the 'church' (putting them in the same category with each other). (Perhaps you might comment differently now this is clear.) Jesus said 'Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues'

[url=http://media.tscnyc.org/wmv/2071028S1.asx]Beware of the Angry Watchmen [/url]by Carter Conlon comes to mind. We so much want everything to be alright, without any personal upheaval. Yet it seems God knows that we are gullible until the fire touches [u]us[/u] and then we jump to our feet and start taking stock and run out the house in which we were formerly comfortable.

Quote:
My premise on the gullibility factor is on the one hand naturally, do not be deceived but it is the purveyors, the 'teachers' who I have the greatest issue with. When people are earnestly seeking for truth, for honesty, for tangible reality they are as a matter of course opening themselves up to a certain vulnerability - That this is taken advantage of, manipulated, coerced and abused ...

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD Ezekiel 34:10. It takes a long time to get over this, and to regain one's trust in eldership, no matter how kind, how biblical, or how mature.

Quote:
I really think this has been given to much of a short shift and feel compelled to elaborate much more on it ... But what one 'knows' in their bowels should never be feared to be put to the test - In fact isn't it really the heart of the matter, a willingness to hold true truth, to coin a phrase?

... [i]knowing[/i] that 'truth' is 'true', but [i]information[/i] may not be ('true'). Isn't this where the Spirit of Truth must guide us towards what we may safely believe, and what we may choose to [i]not[/i] 'believe'?

 2009/4/17 14:53





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