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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

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adamdawkins
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Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Jesus-is-GOD,

Given the negatives that are mentioned that 'he that overcomes' will avoid, can it be said that this really refers to taking part in a first resurrection out of the [b]saints[/b]?

Eating from the tree of life = in Heaven?
Not be hurt by the second death = avoiding the Lake of Fire.
I will not blot his name out = same as above

The only one of the above that seems to directly fit in with what Art is suggesting is Revelation 26-29: - "...to him I will give power over the nations..."

Art is suggesting that you can not make the first resurrection (i.e. not overcome - maybe?) but still avoid the second death, because, in his words, the second resurrection still contains saints whose names are in the Lamb's book of Life.

What do you think?



 2009/3/27 10:59Profile









 Re:

:-D Amen - I thought you'd catch that - "power over the nations"

Though I wouldn't seperate the warnings or commendations HE gave to All of the 7 churches to the overcomers or what constitutes an "overcomer".

There will be people that are not resurrected at His Coming - not meeting Him in the air as He's descending/Returning - so who might they be - if all who had taken the mark are destroyed at His Coming? Rev 14:9-11


I see what Art is saying by the verses he used ...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 [i] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [/i]
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

then after the Millenial reign ...

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


He wouldn't have said this if All were not found in The Book.


The main thought being, who will be here for the 1000 yr.s, who He and the overcomers rule and reign over? Besides those who look upon Him who they pierced and mourn over, as for their only son...Zec 12:10

 2009/3/27 15:23
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

How many believe they can live like Christ?

Has anyone lived like Christ in their own strength?

Who's nature do the born again now have?

I never could or never can live a life like Christ.

Only the Incorruptable Seed of the Father that now is my life, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", is the only way a Christ Life can come from me. The Nature of God now living in me, and coming forth as me by the Christ in me, is the only Christ Life available.

"I can do nothing with out Him". As Christ did nothing without the Father, we can do nothing without Christ.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This is where the rubber meets the road. Phill 4:13; I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

"through" is not enough, It must be, ""in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:

This is my fixed position in time, space and matter, Strong's Greek Dictionary
1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:

So it is Christ in me coming forth as me that makes us who we are in Christ. Nothing, WE, do, but what Christ has done on the Cross and by His resurrection Power still working in the life of the believer, by the Holy Spirit, Christ as us that makes us son's of God and Christ-ones, Christians.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/3/27 23:29Profile









 Re:

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."


I agree with the Scriptures but you fail to give the most important historical Example of How we are to "walk".

As HE did - Always "looking up" to The Father, by His Spirit - to give the thoughts, words and deeds done - orginating From HIM and not ourselves.

But we need to "look up" and ASK - there Must be a co-operative relationship.

What you are teaching will frustrate some and make others lethargic to How HE works "through" us.

Our child-like dependence on HIM - as Christ Jesus [b]was[/b] our Living Example.

He said, The words that I speak and the works that I do - are not mine but the Father's.

We cannot get there by hearing "we need do nothing".


We need to be in constant 'communion' with HIM and total dependence on hearing HIM.


That is work against what the flesh would rather be doing.

Your wording could cause some to stumble,, ie, "Nothing, WE, do"


It was not JUST HIS resurrection but HIS LIFE that must factor into how we are to "walk".

 2009/3/27 23:45
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re: "Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

Hello. Might I suggest something different, which I believe does far more justice to the text:

The first resurrection is regeneration.

The confusion has to do with a poor division of the text into verses.

Look at this idea in the text, with what I (and I believe most pre-1800's commentators) hold to be the proper form:

*****

Rev. 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead [aka, the unsaved people] lived not again [that is, resurrected for judgment unto hell, Daniel 12:2-3] until the thousand years were finished.

[Now a change of subject, in contrast to the unsaved. He will instruct us about regenerate people who have been raised from the death of trespasses and sins through faith in Christ.]

v.5 This is the first resurrection. v.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

********

Seems very plain. If it weren't for our culture and the bad versification, I don't imagine many would hold Art's view.

Love in Christ.

 2009/3/27 23:56Profile









 Re: pardon reposting, please.

.

Peter said that, there is a way to 'wrest/pervert the Scriptures to our own destruction' - either way - legalism, sinless-perfection or easy-grace.


A human who chooses to not be victorious in Christ - would love any easy way out.

Rather than read ALL of Romans 8 - they'd love to just quote it in part - "no condemnation" - period and go along in the flesh, doing what they "think" is right and/or wrong and just confessing it over and over and over again.

Romans 8 is not saying that that is how we have to live.

It says plainly - that there is no condemnation [i]to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after The Spirit ... and then continues on to expand on that "walk".

It is not anything complicated. I posted Romans 8 and showed Jesus' earthly life as our Example.

HE did not have it Over us - HE was 'our' Example of how to "do this walk."


Please - Count how many times Jesus said "My Father".
See how many times that HE said, "the words that I speak are not mine own but ...... "
And - "the works that I do are not mine but ......"
Look and see how many times it says that Jesus "looked up" into Heaven to the Father.
Total dependency on The Father - through The Spirit - as a little child.
Asking Father what to do, say, think and so forth.

With us, many or most times, He'll point us to something from His Word --- but it's just the question of 'taking that minute' to look-up in spirit and ask.

That's it!

Setting our minds on things above --- seated in Heavenly Places --- praying without ceasing --- Knowing, hearing and following The Shepherd's Voice so that we won't follow another --- as helpless little children or dumb sheep --- Looking Up --- having our minds washed by the cleansing of The WORD --- Trusting in the LORD with all of our hearts and leaning not unto our own understanding and in ALL of our ways, acknowledging HIM, so that HE shall direct our paths ... knowing that ALL things are working together to conform us into HIS Image ... not by our works but by that dependence of looking up in constant prayer to HIM by HIS Spirit to guide, teach, lead, fill us with HIS WORD ......

[b]Total utter child-like Dependence which is "Active Continuous Faith in HIM"[/b] and not upon ourselves to "perform" but to "be led" and filled with the mind of Christ in and by His Word and John 16:13-14.

Like a little child - leaning, listening, filled with His Word and obeying what we hear or read.


Eating The WORD of GOD and full dependence on HIS John 10 Voice by HIS John 16:13 Spirit.


Then HE gets all the Glory and our minds are so full of HIM, there will be less time to allow temptations to make a nest in our heads.


Remembering that "sin" is just missing the mark of HIS IMAGE and not just immoral acts.

It's The Image of The Son that The Father had planned through the First born.


Not humans constantly falling until they're bruised enough from each "sin" to finally stop that one "sin" --- one "sin" at a time.

I don't find this "keep trying and failing" walk in HIS WORD --- I see HIM as our Only Example of total dependency.
According to Romans 8 and the whole of the N.T. - there's not a mention of boasting nor constant failing.

He's given us "HIS faith" - we have the GOD given potential to be those called the Overcomers.

Not by might - not by power - but by His Spirit - 'through' [1 John 4:9] our child-like looking up in constant dependence on HIM - as Jesus did while here in human flesh, as we are.
Filled with HIS WORD and HIS SPIRIT - more than conquerors [i]through[/i] Him that loves us.
The goal set before us is being in that constant communion 'more and more' - taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ - looking up and eating His Word.

It's not a mystery of "how to walk in the Spirit" - it's just our self-reliance that swings us into either legalism or easy-grace.

"Looking up" as Jesus constantly did - as a son looks onto his father - for guidance and to his father's words is not "works" - it's merely childlike or sheep-like Dependence.

The strife of Cain against Abel continues on -- though to follow HIS Example is so plainly written out for us about "dependence" -- but if we continue on being ignorant of HIS Dependent Example & keep on doing it our way [taking the credit [b]or[/b] the condemnation we feel] - we [i]will[/i] lose our Love.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our Love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as HE is, so are we in this world.

Know ye that the LORD He is God: it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture.

So we thy people and sheep of Thy pasture will give Thee Thanks for ever: we will shew forth Thy praise to all generations. Amen! To Thy Glory.

 2009/3/27 23:57
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""He said, The words that I speak and the works that I do - are not mine but the Father's.

We cannot get there by hearing "we need do nothing".


We need to be in constant 'communion' with HIM and total dependence on hearing HIM."""

Then we must say the works we do are not mine but the works of Jesus Christ in me. We need do everything we Hear from Him. We have ears to hear and eyes to see, but fall short in faith to believe that the Christ in us is our life and it is He that working in us to do the greater works for the Kingdom of God, not signs wonders and gifts as our premis. It is Christ that will do the works in us when they are needed for the Kingdom, for it is the Holy Spirit that severly distributes the gifts as He pleases for the Body of Christ. How bad we have been deceived that it is us that does the works of the Gifts that God is the only one that give them to men and they work by His Holy Spirit to fulfill His great plan.

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

This is what is missing in the Church, but not in the Body of Christ His Church, for it His working in us that makes us son's able to do the works greater than He did, to fulfill the dispensation of God. Which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's works work in us mightily according to His working? This is our Labour. Presenting every man perfect in Christ by His workings, the ministry of reconciliation;

This is our righteousness the world should see. Him in us walking on this earth in all our brothers and sisters and reconciling all those the Father send Christ to for salvation by Faith through Grace.

2 Corinthians 5:19-21 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is our thanks and walking papers, trust in Christ and let His works shine through us as His works, if we believe the scriptures by Faith through Grace unto the kingdom of God where we already dwell in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus our Lord and He in us, coming forth as us.

Colossians 1:12-29 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Paul says it is His working which worketh in us mightly that will present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, This is our Lobour, to fill up, Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

In my flesh for His body's sake? which is the church which is behind in the afflictions of Christ in our flesh. He will do the works in us that bring forth the glory in Christ in us to the Glory of the Father. Our work is much more that just keeping the Law, but spreading the Gospel of Christ in you the hope of Glory, which is given for usward that we might be the instruments as Gods sons for His good pleasure.

WE can do nothing, He in us can do all thing through us if we believe He is doing them and we are His friends folling His lead and direction for the works of the Body of Christ for the kingdom of God and all who believe and will believe on Jesus Christ as the Son of God unto salvation.

ph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/3/28 0:35Profile









 Re:

I stressed that it is HIS working "through" us - but HE needs our co-operation because we are not a robot-bride.

I only stressed dependence on a "communion" with HIM.

Where we don't walk after what we 'think' we should be "doing" - but using HIM as our Example - looking Up to hear The Good Sheperd and Follow His lead by His Strength because we Love Him.



[b]Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



From the beginning in Deut 6 - His Two Commandments are to Love Him with all that we are and others - as He did/does. There was only One Covenent - that of Love bringing Grace.



Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/b]



Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and [b]do[/b] those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come,

[i]and his wife hath made herself ready. [/i]





A "wife" who "Loves" her Husband does not "do nothing" but she "listens to & for and depends on her Husband's Voice" [Jn 10], submits and seeks in every way to please Him - in any way He asks or directs, by His strength, to any guidance, direction, command or unction that HE Speaks or has Spoken in His Word.

That's Love!

 2009/3/28 0:58
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Re:
I stressed that it is HIS working "through" us - but HE needs our co-operation because we are not a robot-bride.


How can we be robots with the living glorified, resurrected and by birthing, having this Son of God in us, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, literally the Sperma of God which has brought forth in new birth a new creature in Christ Jesus

 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who did Paul minister to but the new creatures in Christ, Gentiles or Jews that the Father has given the Son.


_________________
Phillip

 2009/3/28 1:11Profile









 Re:

I believe The WORD of GOD to be inerrant but our verse pulling looses something of The Whole.

You are pulling verses telling us the obvious of what HE has done - I am only trying to balance your comments between Scripture with our "co-operative relationship" by giving the Scriptures stating our part of this Two-Sided Relationship.


The balance would be the proper tension between your Scripture posts and those Scriptures you leave out.

As far as your question above - we need only look at Christiandom since the First Church to see that we have sorely missed something - and I contend that it is that we have not come to see our need to "walk as HE did, by listening Up to GOD and following." That Total Dependence - that John 10 Sheep relationship. That wife to Husband relationship. HE's always there to speak and guide and direct and empower if we'd only stop long enough to "look up" as HE did and lean not to our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledging HIM so that He can direct our paths - even our thoughts, words and actions... which are all based in His Love for others.
"Self-less" as HE was.

A selfless person can take no glory.

GOD Bless you.

 2009/3/28 1:26





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