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adamdawkins
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Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 "Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

Hi all,

I am a great admirer of Art Katz. His teachings always cut me to the heart, and I believe the Lord will continue to use his material for a long time to cut through to my innermost parts and probe, test and challenge me.

When reading through [i]Apostolic Foundations[/i], which I think is spot on in the challenges that it presents, I came across some eschatological views of Art's that I hadn't come across before. One of which is the idea of a separation of [b]saints[/b] between the first and second resurrection, what do you think?

NB: I still think the challenges even of this passage are worth us taking to heart, whatever our doctrinal conclusions and persuasions.

___________________________

THE MYSTERY OF REWARDS (from Apostolic Foundations)

Neither will we all rise at the same time. Some of us will rise with the first resurrection of a first fruits kind, that is to say, those who will rule and reign with Him in His millennial Kingdom. Others will sleep through the Millennium, and only rise with the general resurrection of the dead that is described in Revelation Chapter 20, where the books will be opened, including the Book of Life, to see if their names are written in it.

Some of us will not be equipped to rule and reign with Christ, because we have ignored, or forsaken, of have had no stomach for this kind of responsibility, though we [i]could[/i] have obtained it in this life. Those Christians, who have been content to sit passively in fellowships their entire Christian life, because they were assure they were "going to heaven" may well be profoundly disappointed. I would not want to miss the first resurrection, and that is why Paul is continually exhorting the saints to be found blameless in the Day of the Lord's appearing. We have an eternal incentive to obtain a distinctive reward of the high calling in Christ Jesus. Apparently it is not for everyone; for it says that the rest shall sleep:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or the image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." - Revelation 20:4-5

It is a a remarkable reward for a remarkable service in a remarkable time of Last Days' oppression and persecution, where the greater number evidently could not stand in a faith that could resist succumbing to the mark of the Beast. The 'beheaded' are a people who will prefer to perish rather than take the mark, of which we are warned, that if we take it, we will be cast into the lake of fire with the Devil.

[...]

THE FIRST RESURRECTION

[...]

"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books [...] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:11-15

Just from a simple reading of that text, I would have to say that those who were not qualified to rise with the blessed, holy and priestly saints had to wait a thousand years. They missed the initiation of God's Kingdom, and any participation in it. The clear and literal deduction must include a number of those who [i]were[/i] saved, but who lived lives without any significant distinction that would have earned them the reward of a first resurrection, and were therefore to be judged with all the other dead. They did not rise with the first resurrection, otherwise there would be no need to consult the Lamb's Book of Life. Those who rise in the first resurrection, and because of that rising, reveal the approval and acceptance of being found [i]in[/i] Christ. Their walk, their conduct, character and works qualify them for the resurrection. If we do not rise, then we have not qualified. We were not found worthy for that first resurrection. Paul said that he strove to obtain [i]the[/i] resurrection. It is not automatic, but rather a 'being found worthy.' Those who are mature, those who are overcomers, those who have the character of Christ, who are [i]in[/i] Christ, and who can hear His trump will rise. Those who are not [i]in[/i] Christ, who are immature, untested, unqualified and unworthy, will sleep for a thousand years.

Those whose names are found in the Lamb's Book of Life are going to be saved out of hell, and from being thrown into the Lake of Fire with all the rest of the dead, but I would not want to wait to see if my name was written. There is a possibility that it might have been written, and has since been blotted out. It was so paramount for Paul to qualify for that first resurrection. And we will never be blessed, holy or priestly - the qualifications for the first resurrection - unless we have the kind of determination that Paul had, namely, to be found worthy of that first resurrection.

"And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." - Revelation 11:18

Here is the judgement of God, destroying those who destroy, but giving reward to both [i]small[/i] and [i]great[/i]. There is a reward at every level, and at every grade, proportionate to the work and the investment. To be without reward will be an eternal shame.

_________________________

DISCLAIMER: Please don't turn this into a Once Save Always Saved, Calvinism vs Arminianism type thing over a couple of sentences - please keep this about the topic of resurrection! Thanks :)

 2009/3/26 21:36Profile
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re: "Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

If you don't fancy reading the whole thing, just the part under THE FIRST RESURRECTION will give you enough of a gist of what is being said.

Thanks,

Adam

 2009/3/26 21:36Profile









 Re:

I believe Scripturally, this is true - that is if these folks die.

If we're ruling and reigning with Him from Rev 20:4-6, then there has to be those who didn't take the mark but were not overcomers - for there to be someone here for Him to Reign over.


Makes sense to me Scripturally from Rev 20 in it's entirety.

I wonder if that may not be the 5 foolish "virgins"?


 2009/3/26 21:58
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Paul knew exactly who his labor and striving was coming from;

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

He who works in us mightily is the perfection in Christ that we attain to be Holy and blessed in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I am not blessed or holy by anything I do, it is Christ in me that makes me blessed and holy. Now my striving and labor will bring blessedness and holiness, that I might take part in the first resurrection, a priest of God and of Christ and shall reign 1000 years with God and His Christ who is our abode with God the Father, Jesus Christ and the blessed Holy Spirit sent from God at the request of Jesus Christ, The blessed Holy Spirit who will be in us, not just with us, but in us, "New Creatures" forever as Christ in us and the Father will always be in us, "The With is not enough for God, That is why we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Which if studied should read, not "which", but, who for an eternal lifetime be thine own forever.

Who is this Word? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Born How? John 1:13-14 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is our birthright as son's of God, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/3/26 22:56Profile









 Re: "Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

Quote:
Art Katz wrote:

Those Christians, who have been content to sit passively in fellowships their entire Christian life, because they were assure they were "going to heaven" may well be profoundly disappointed. I would not want to miss the first resurrection, and that is why Paul is continually exhorting the saints to be found blameless in the Day of the Lord's appearing. We have an eternal incentive to obtain a distinctive reward of the high calling in Christ Jesus.



Yes, Paul did say all that Art said, plus -

Php 3:10, 11 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [b]If[/b] [G1513] by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Php 3:14 I press [G1377] toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 1:18, 19 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck

2Ti 2:3-7 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

1Co 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Php 2:12-15 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world

Even Peter:

2Pe 3:14-17 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

1Pe 1:13-16 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

______________________________________________________


The 5 foolish virgins were told "I knew you not" by the LORD, so I guess that rules them out.

Thinking about the warnings that He gave to some of the churches in The Revelation.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 2009/3/27 0:32
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

The 5 foolish virgins were told "I knew you not" by the LORD, so I guess that rules them out.

Thinking about the warnings that He gave to some of the churches in The Revelation.


A while back I was listening to this sermon by David Wilkerson (I think this was the one):

Virgin Lock Out by David Wilkerson

Wilkerson points out that these were virgins that were locked out - not whores, but virgins - clean and pure virgins that were only lacking one thing - oil.

 2009/3/27 0:54Profile









 Re: A little "push back"

I would like to give a little push back, especially about the introduction of this article.

Quote:
I still think the challenges even of this passage are worth us taking to heart, whatever our doctrinal conclusions and persuasions.



So what is more important, challenges from men? (No matter what their reputation)
Or, clearly understanding what the Word of God says?

Mr. Katz is teaching doctrine here, so I think we should be focused upon whether or not it is true because doctrine (teaching) leads to something. Doctrine takes us places, whether we want to admit that or not...

Doctrine: What we believe and what we teach….

The doctrine of the Judaizers led them to reject the Grace of God.

The doctrine of the Pharisees led them to ignore widows and reject outsiders.

At one point Peter's doctrine led him to separate himself from the gentile Christians.

The doctrine of some Muslims leads them to blow themselves up.

The doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses leads them to labor for God's favor and go door to door every weekend attempting to earn the smile of God.

The doctrine of the faith movement leads people to give money in order to get money.

The doctrine of some denominations around where I live leads them to drive only black cars, and wear head coverings.

The point is this: Doctrine matters. What we believe and what we teach is paramount. Challenges from men who, remember … are just men. Do not take precedence over our desire to clearly understand what the bible says. Yes, we respect them for their work and accomplishment, but I also respect men and women outside of the Church for their work and accomplishment.

We should approach every message, every article, and every opinion on this website with the same mindset.

 2009/3/27 9:40









 Re:

Quote:
The doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses leads them to labor for God's favor and go door to door every weekend attempting to earn the smile of God.[/quote/]

About 30 seconds after I posted this a Jehovah's Witness came to my door. :-D

 2009/3/27 9:46









 Re: "Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

About the exhortations to the churches - I just swiped this from one of Chris's post.
[Is that Kosher?] :-)

Quote:

(scroll over to read)

Revelation 2:7

Revelation 2:11

Revelation 2:17

Revelation 2:26-29

Revelation 3:5

Revelation 3:11-12

Revelation 3:21

 2009/3/27 10:03
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Hi Mahoney,

Thank you for your kind rebuke. I wholeheartedly agree with you, though I know my introduction suggested otherwise.

The very reason I posted this is because, despite Art's 'reputation', he wrote this as a man, and is fallible and could well be wrong. I found the doctrine surprising because I hadn't heard it before, which was the very reason I was challenging it.

I'm not someone that believes that as long as someone's intentions or reputation are wholesome then their doctrine is also. Art actually teaches on how not only is sound doctrine important, but that the person speaking the doctrine is 'true' in themselves. But it does work the other way, the doctrine must also be the truth, as revealed by God!

I must admit, I wrote this post in the small hours of the morning, and when I wrote the sentence you brought into question, I hadn't quite finished writing out the chapter, which, as you say, is just straight doctrine.

What made me say what I did was when I read into some elements about being found worthy of Christ. My thoughts were that Art may well be incorrect with regards to this doctrine, but that we need to live lives worthy of our high calling is still challenging regardless.

I realise also that re-reading my post I come across as sounding like I have an unhealthy respect for Art, and as such do not want to risk dirtying [i]his[/i] name more than the Lord's. That is not so, it's just that in [b]challenging[/b] and testing his doctrine I didn't want to come across as someone who is opposed to Art in himself.

I need to be more careful about how I communicate in written form because I agree with [u]all[/u] of what you said in your post.

Thank you for picking me up on it.

Adam

 2009/3/27 10:52Profile





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