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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I think Thomas Watson (among a few other Puritan divines) had the right idea in relation to the spiritual/allegorical interpretation of Canticles, and how it applies to us in the correct context (that is, with the entire remaining Word of God, and not just one isolated poetic book). Are you familiar with Watson's writings? The following is a very worthwhile read:

[b]The Mystic Union between Christ and His Saints[/b]

"My beloved is mine, and I am his." (Song 2:16)


In this Song of Songs we see the love of Christ and his church running towards each other in a full torrent.


The text contains three general parts:
1. A symbol of affection: "My beloved."
2. A term of appropriation: "is mine."
3. A holy resignation: "I am his."

Doctrine: That there is a conjugal union between Christ and believers. The apostle, having treated at large of marriage, winds up the whole chapter thus: "This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Eph. 5:32). What is closer than union? What sweeter? There is a twofold union with Christ:

1. A natural union. This all men have, Christ having taken their nature on him and not that of the angels (Heb. 2:16). But if there is no more than this natural union, it will give little comfort. Thousands are damned though Christ is united to their nature.

2. A sacred union. By this we are mystically united to Christ. The union with Christ is not personal. If Christ's essence were transfused into the person of a believer, then it would follow that all that a believer does should be meritorious.

But the union between Christ and a saint is:

(a) Federal: "My beloved is mine." God the Father gives the bride; God the Son receives the bride; God the Holy Ghost ties the knot in marriage - he knits our wills to Christ and Christ's love to us.

(b) Effectual. Christ unites himself to his spouse by his graces and influences: "of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16). Christ makes himself one with the spouse by conveying his image and stamping the impress of his own holiness upon her.

This union with Christ may well be called mystic. It is hard to describe the manner of it. It is hard to show how the soul is united to the body, and how Christ is united to the soul. But though this union is spiritual, it is real. Things in nature often work insensibly, yet really (Eccles. 11:5). We do not see the hand move on the dial, yet it moves. The sun exhales and draws up the vapours of the earth insensibly yet really. So the union between Christ and the soul, though it is imperceptible to the eye of reason, is still real (I Cor. 6:17).

Before this union with Christ there must be a separation. The heart must be separated from all other lovers, as in marriage there is a leaving of father and mother: "Forget your own people, and your father's house." (Psa. 45:10). So there must be a leaving of our former sins, a breaking off the old league with hell before we can be united to Christ. "Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols?" (Hos. 14:8), or as it is in the Hebrew, "with sorrows." Those sins which were looked on before as lovers, are now sorrows. There must be a divorce before a union.

The purpose of our conjugal union with Christ is twofold:

1. Co-habitation. This is one purpose of marriage, to live together: "that Christ may dwell in your hearts" (Eph. 2:17). It is not enough to pay Christ a few complimentary visits in his ordinances - hypocrites may do so - but there must be a mutual associating. We must dwell upon the thoughts of Christ: "he that abides in God" (cf. I John 3:24). Married persons should not live apart.

2. Fruit bearing: "That you may be married to another; to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." (Rom. 7:4). The spouse bears the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness (Gal. 5:22). Barrenness is a shame in Christ's spouse.

This marriage union with Christ is the most noble and excellent union:

(a) Christ unites himself to many. In other marriages only one person is taken, but here millions are taken. Otherwise, poor souls might cry out, "Alas! Christ has married So-and-so, but what is that to me? I am left out." No, Christ marries thousands. It is a holy and chaste polygamy. Multitudes of people do not defile this marriage bed. Any poor sinner who brings a humble, believing heart may be married to Christ.

(b) There is a closer union in this holy marriage than there can be in any other. In other marriages, two make one flesh, but Christ and the believer make one spirit: "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (I Cor. 6:17). Now as the soul is more excellent than the body, and admits of far greater joy, so this spiritual union brings in more astonishing delights and ravishments than any other marriage relationship is capable of. The joy that flows from the mystic union is unspeakable and full of glory (I Peter 1:8).

(c) This union with Christ never ceases. "Thrice happy they whom an unbroken bond unites" (Horace). Other marriages are soon at an end. Death cuts asunder the marriage knot, but this conjugal union is eternal. You who are once Christ's spouse shall never again be a widow: "I will betroth you to me forever" (Hosea 2:19). To speak properly, our marriage with Christ begins where other marriages end, at death.

In this life there is only the contract. The Jews had a time set between their engagement and marriage, sometimes a year or more. In this life there is only the engagement and contract; promises are made on both sides, and love passes secretly between Christ and the soul. He gives some smiles of his face, and the soul sends up her sighs and drops tears of love. But all this is only a preliminary work, and something leading up to the marriage. The glorious completing and solemnizing of the marriage is reserved for heaven. There is the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9) and the bed of glory perfumed with love where the souls of the elect shall be perpetually consoling themselves. "Then shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:17). So death merely begins our marriage with Christ.

Application 1: If Christ is the head of the mystic body (Eph. 1:22), then this doctrine beheads the Pope, that man of sin who usurps this prerogative of being the head of the church, and so would defile Christ's marriage bed. What blasphemy this is! Two heads are monstrous. Christ is Head, as he is Husband. There is no vice-husband, no deputy in his place. The Pope is the beast in Revelation (Rev. 13:11). To make him head of the church, what would this be but to set the head of a beast upon the body of a man?

Application 2: If there is such a conjugal union, let us test whether we are united to Christ:

1. Have we chosen Christ to set our love upon, and is this choice founded on knowledge?

2. Have we consented to the match? It is not enough that Christ is willing to have us, but are we willing to have him? God does not so force salvation upon us that we shall have Christ whether we want to or not. We must consent to have him. Many approve of Christ, but do not give their consent. And this consent must be:

(a) Pure and genuine. We consent to have him for his own worth and excellence: "You are fairer than the sons of men" (Psa. 45:2).

(b) A present consent: "now is the acceptable time" (2 Cor. 6:2). If we put Christ off with delays and excuses, perhaps he will stop coming. He will leave off wooing. "His spirit shall no longer strive," and then, poor sinner, what will you do? When God's wooing ends, your woes begin.

3. Have we taken Christ? Faith is the bond of the union. Christ is joined to us by his Spirit, and we are joined to him by faith. Faith ties the marriage knot.

4. Have we given ourselves up to Christ? Thus the spouse in the text says, "I am his," as if she had said, "All I have is for the use and service of Christ." Have we made a surrender? Have we given up our name and will to Christ? When the devil solicits by a temptation, do we say, "We are not our own, we are Christ's; our tongues are his, we must not defile them with oaths; our bodies are his temple, we must not pollute them with sin?" If it is so, it is a sign that the Holy Ghost has produced this blessed union between Christ and us.

Application 3: Is there this mystic union? Then from that we may draw many inferences:

1. See the dignity of all true believers. They are joined in marriage with Christ. There is not only assimilation but union; they are not only like Christ but one with Christ. All the saints have this honour. When a king marries a beggar, by virtue of the union she is ennobled and made of the blood royal. As wicked men are united to the prince of darkness, and he settles hell upon them as their inheritance, so the godly are divinely united to Christ, who is King of kings, and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16). By virtue of this sacred union the saints are dignified above the angels. Christ is the Lord of the angels, but not their husband.

2. See how happily all the saints are married. They are united to Christ, who is the best Husband, "the Chiefest among ten thousand" (Song 5:10). Christ is a Husband that cannot be paralleled:

(a) For tender care. The spouse cannot be as considerate of her own soul and credit as Christ is considerate of her: "He cares for you" (I Pet. 5:7). Christ has a debate with himself, consulting and projecting how to carry on the work of our salvation. He transacts all our affairs, he attends to our business as his own. Indeed, he himself is concerned in it. He brings fresh supplies to his spouse. If she wanders out of the way, he guides her. If she stumbles, he holds her by the hand. If she falls, he raises her. If she is dull, he quickens her by his Spirit. If she is perverse, he draws her with cords of love. If she is sad, he comforts her with promises.

(b) For ardent affection. No husband loves like Christ. The Lord says to the people, "I have loved you," and they say, "In what way have you loved us?" (Mal. 1:2). But we cannot say to Christ, "In what way have you loved us?" Christ has given real demonstrations of his love to his spouse. He has sent her his Word, which is a love-letter, and he has given her his Spirit, which is a love-token. Christ loves more than any other husband:

Christ puts a richer robe on his bride: "For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels." (Isa. 61:10). In this robe, God looks on us as if we had not sinned. This robe is as truly ours to justify us, as it is Christ's to bestow on us. This robe not only covers but adorns. Having on this robe, we are reputed righteous, not only as righteous as angels, but as righteous as Christ: "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).
Christ gives his bride not only his golden garments but his image. He loves her into his own likeness. A husband may have a dear affection for his wife, but he cannot stamp his own image on her. If she is deformed, he may give her a veil to hide it, but he cannot put his beauty on her. But Christ imparts "the beauty of holiness" to his spouse: "Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I had bestowed on you," (Ezek. 16:14). When Christ marries a soul, he makes it fair: "You are all fair, my love" (Song 4:7). Christ never thinks he has loved his spouse enough till he can see his own face in her.
Christ discharges those debts which no other husband can. Our sins are the worst debts we owe. If all the angels should contribute money, they could not pay one of these debts, but Christ frees us from these. He is both a Husband and a Surety. He says to justice what Paul said concerning Onesimus, "But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account." (Philem. 1:18).
Christ has suffered more for his spouse than ever any husband did for a wife. He suffered poverty and ignominy. He who crowned the heavens with stars was himself crowned with thorns. He was called a companion of sinners, so that we might be made companions of angels. He was regardless of his life; he leaped into the sea of his Father's wrath to save his spouse from drowning.
Christ's love does not end with his life. He loves his spouse for ever: "I will betroth you to me forever" (Hos. 2:19). Well may the apostle call it "a love which passes knowledge" (Eph. 3:19).
3. See how rich believers are. They have married into the crown of heaven, and by virtue of the conjugal union all Christ's riches go to believers: "communion is founded in union." Christ communicates his graces (John 1:16 ). As long as Christ has them, believers shall not be in want. And he communicates his privileges - justification, glorification. He settles a kingdom on his spouse as her inheritance (Heb. 12:28). This is a key to the apostle's riddle, "as having nothing, and yet possessing all things" (2 Cor. 6:10). By virtue of the marriage union, the saints have an interest in all Christ's riches.

4. See how fearful a sin it is to abuse the saints. It is an injury done to Christ, for believers are mystically one with him: "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4). When the body was wounded, the Head, being in heaven, cried out. In this sense, men crucify Christ afresh (Heb. 6:6), because what is done to his members is done to him. If Gideon was avenged upon those who slew his brethren, will not Christ much more be avenged on those that wrong his spouse (Judges 8:21)? Will a king tolerate having his treasure rifled, his crown thrown in the dust, his queen beheaded? Will Christ bear with the affronts and injuries done to his bride? The saints are the apple of Christ's eye (Zech. 2:8), and let those who strike at his eye answer for it. Isa 49:26 "I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine" (Isa. 49:26).

5. See the reason why the saints so rejoice in the Word and sacrament, because here they meet with their Husband, Christ. The wife desires to be in the presence of her husband. The ordinances are the chariot in which Christ rides, the lattice through which he looks forth and shows his smiling face. Here Christ displays the banner of love (Song 2:4). The Lord's Supper is nothing other than a pledge and earnest of that eternal communion which the saints shall have with Christ in heaven. Then he will take the spouse into his bosom. If Christ is so sweet in an ordinance, when we have only short glances and dark glimpses of him by faith, oh then, how delightful and ravishing will his presence be in heaven when we see him face to face and are for ever in his loving embraces!

Application 4: This mystic union affords much comfort to believers in several cases:

1. In the case of the disrespect and unkindness of the world: "in wrath they hate me" (Psa. 55:3). But though we live in an unkind world, we have a kind Husband: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you" (John 15:9). What angel can tell how God the Father loves Christ? Yet the Father's love to Christ is made the copy and pattern of Christ's love to his spouse. This love of Christ as far exceeds all created love as the sun outshines the light of a torch. And is not this a matter of comfort? Though the world hates me, Christ still loves me.

2. In the case of weakness of grace. The believer cannot lay hold on Christ, except with a trembling hand. There is a "spirit of infirmity" on him, but oh, weak Christian, here is strong consolation: there is a conjugal union. You are the spouse of Christ, and he will bear with you as the weaker vessel. Will a husband divorce his wife because she is weak and sickly? No, he will be the more tender with her. Christ hates treachery, but he will pity infirmity. When the spouse is faint and ready to be discouraged, Christ puts his left hand under her head (Song 2:6). This is the spouse's comfort when she is weak. Her Husband can infuse strength into her: "My God shall be my strength" (Isa. 49:5).

3. In the case of death. When believers die, they go to their Husband. Who would not be willing to cross the gulf of death that they might meet with their Husband, Christ? "I desire to loosen anchor" (Phil. 1:23), and be with Christ. What though the way is dirty? We are going to our friend. When a woman is engaged, she longs for the day of marriage. After the saints' funeral, their marriage begins. The body is a prison to the soul. Who would not desire to exchange a prison for a marriage bed? How glad Joseph was to go out of prison to the king's court! God is wise; he lets us meet with changes and troubles here, so that he may wean us from the world and make us long for death. When the soul is divorced from the body, it is married to Christ.

4. In the case of passing sentence at the day of judgment. There is a marriage union and, oh Christian, your Husband shall be your judge. A wife would not fear appearing at the bar if her husband was sitting as judge. What though the devil should bring in many indictments against you? Christ will expunge your sins in his blood. Could he possibly say, "I shall condemn my spouse?" Oh, what a comfort this is! The Husband is judge. Christ cannot pass sentence against his spouse without passing it against himself. For Christ and believers are one.

5. In the case of the saints' suffering. The church of God is exposed in this life to many injuries, but she has a Husband in heaven who is mindful of her and will "turn water into wine" for her. Now it is a time of mourning with the spouse because the Bridegroom is absent (Matt. 9:15). But shortly she shall put off her mourning. Christ will wipe the tears of blood off the cheeks of his spouse: "He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces" (Isa. 25:8). Christ will comfort his spouse for as much time as she has been afflicted. He will solace her with his love; he will take away the cup of trembling and give her the cup of consolation. And now she shall forget all her sorrows, being called into the banqueting house of heaven and having the banner of Christ's love displayed over her.

Application 5: Let me press several duties upon those who have this marriage union with Christ:

1. Make use of this relationship in two cases:

(a) When the law brings in its indictments against you. The law says, "Here there are so many debts to be paid," and it demands satisfaction. Acknowledge the debt, but turn it all over to your Husband, Christ. It is a maxim in law that the suit must not go against the wife, as long as the husband is living. Tell Satan when he accuses you, "It is true that the debt is mine, but go to my Husband, Christ; he will discharge it." If we took this course, we might relieve ourselves of much trouble. By faith we turn over the debt to our Husband. Believers are not in a state of widowhood but of marriage. Satan will never go to Christ - he knows that justice is satisfied and the debt book cancelled - but he comes to us for the debt so that he may perplex us. We should send him to Christ and then all lawsuits would cease. This is a believer's triumph. When he is guilty in himself, he is worthy in Christ. When he is spotted in himself, he is pure in his Head.

(b) In the case of desertion. Christ may (for reasons best known to himself) step aside for a time: "my beloved had withdrawn himself" (Song 5:6). Do not say, therefore, that Christ has gone for good. It is a fruit of jealousy in a wife, when her husband has left her a while, to think that he has gone from her for good. Every time Christ removes himself out of sight, it is wrong for us to say (like Zion), "The Lord has forsaken me" (Isa. 49:14). This is jealousy, and it is a wrong done to the love of Christ and the sweetness of this marriage relationship. Christ may forsake his spouse in regard of comfort, but he will not forsake her in regard of union. A husband may be a thousand miles distant from his wife, but he is still a husband. Christ may leave his spouse, but the marriage knot still holds.

2. Rejoice in your Husband, Christ. Has Christ honoured you by taking you into the marriage relationship and making you one with himself? This calls for joy. By virtue of the union, believers are sharers with Christ in his riches. It was a custom among the Romans, when the wife was brought home, for her to receive the keys of her husband's house, intimating that the treasure and custody of the house was now committed to her. When Christ brings his bride home to those glorious mansions which he has gone ahead to prepare for her (John 14:2), he will hand over the keys of his treasure to her, and she shall be as rich as heaven can make her. And shall not the spouse rejoice and sing aloud upon her bed (Psa. 149:5)? Christians, let the times be ever so sad, you may rejoice in your spiritual espousals (Hab. 3:17,18). Let me tell you, it is a sin not to rejoice. You disparage your Husband, Christ. When a wife is always sighing and weeping, what will others say? "This woman has a bad husband." Is this the fruit of Christ's love to you, to reflect dishonour upon him? A melancholy spouse saddens Christ's heart. I do not deny that Christians should grieve for sins of daily occurrence, but to be always weeping (as if they mourned without hope) is dishonourable to the marriage relationship. "Rejoice in the Lord always" (Phil. 4:4). Rejoicing brings credit to your husband. Christ loves a cheerful bride, and indeed the very purpose of God's making us sad is to make us rejoice. We sow in tears, so that we may reap in joy. The excessive sadness and contrition of the godly will make others afraid to embrace Christ. They will begin to question whether there is that satisfactory joy in religion which is claimed. Oh, you saints of God, do not forget consolation; let others see that you do not repent of your choice. It is joy that puts liveliness and activity into a Christian: "the joy of the Lord is your strength" (Neh. 8:10). The soul is swiftest in duty when it is carried on the wings of joy.

3. Adorn this marriage relationship, so that you may be a crown to your husband.

(a) Wear a veil. We read of the spouse's veil (Song 5:7). This veil is humility.

(b) Put on your jewels. These are the graces which for their lustre are compared to rows of pearl and chains of gold (Song 1:1O). These precious jewels distinguish Christ's bride from strangers.

(c) Behave as becomes Christ's spouse:

In chastity. Be chaste in your judgments; do not defile yourselves with error. Error adulterates the mind (1 Tim. 6:5). It is one of Satan's artifices first to defile the judgment, then the conscience.
In sanctity. It is not for Christ's spouse to behave like harlots. A naked breast and a wanton tongue do not become a saint. Christ's bride must shine forth in gospel purity, so that she may make her husband fall in love with her. A woman was asked what dowry she brought her husband. She answered that she had no dowry, but she promised to keep herself chaste. So though we can bring Christ no dowry, yet he expects us to keep ourselves pure, not spotting the breasts of our virginity by contagious and scandalous sins.
4. Love your Husband, Christ (Song 2:5). Love him though he is reproached and persecuted. A wife loves her husband when in prison. To inflame your love towards Christ, consider:

(a) Nothing else is fit for you to love. If Christ is your Husband, it is not fit to have other lovers who would make Christ grow jealous.

(b) He is worthy of your love. He is of unparalleled beauty: "altogether lovely" (Song 5:16).

(c) How fervent is Christ's love towards you! He loves you in your worst condition, he loves you in affliction. The goldsmith loves his gold in the furnace. He loves you notwithstanding your fears and blemishes. The saints' infirmities cannot wholly remove Christ's love from them (Jer. 3:1). Oh then, how the spouse should be endeared in her love to Christ! This will be the excellence of heaven. Our love will then be like the sun in its full strength.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/3/25 7:55Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: What is the law of sin and death?

Quote:
...because I have no sin...



[i]If we say that we have no sin ...[/i]

Quote:
Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; (I am under Grace)therefore, I have no more sins before God



[i]we deceive ourselves,[/i]

Quote:
This is the righteousness which is by faith and not by works, do you understand? I am sin free



[i]and the truth is not in us.[/i]

Quote:
We live every day in holiness to God...



[i]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/i] 1Jn 1:10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Quote:
It seems some people do not understand this; I will try and explain it so it is easy to understand.

Quote:
This is the righteousness which is by faith and not by works, do you understand?



[i]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.[/i] Jas 3:1

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Been reading your posts for awhile - Your great spiritual experiences, ethereal - otherworld - All with a special flourish. Your motivations may well be pure as snow but I am afraid for you, that you do not know the depravity of your own heart and the certain blindness to your boasting.

Every time this matter comes up of what Paul meant, what he explained, what he understood of his human condition ... It seems to get ran into the ground and squared off in nice tidy segments that are impossible to reconcile - Saints with sin or Sinless Saints and around it goes.

You can live in the notions of your head up until the point that reality brings it all crashing back down to earth - 1Co 15:47-49

This is what many of us fear and have often noted it when the pendulum is swung too far- That it can set others up for a greater fall when those times inevitably come, that you are made to [i]feel[/i] and to [i]know[/i] what still lurks and remains.

You may think you are clear of offense, that your conscience is pure and undefiled but others may have an altogether different observance of your character and conduct.


Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1Co 10:12


If you have never been in a season of darkness, of being left alone ... All the words in the world pale to the experience - The drift is easy, the old haunts, never removed nor completely extinguished - are still there. There is no complete eradication of sin that some could but wish were so true and that is so often implied, intentionally or otherwise.

Experience trumps great swelling pious sentiment.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go] Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/3/25 9:39Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:


...It seems to get ran into the ground and squared off in nice tidy segments that are impossible to reconcile - Saints with sin or Sinless Saints and around it goes.




You have misunderstood what I was relating here. There is no sinless perfection while [u]in the flesh[/u], only Jesus was perfect in the flesh.

What I was saying is, I have no sin because of the Blood of the Lamb, that Jesus took the sins and nailed them to the cross. When God looks at me, He sees only the blood of the Lamb applied to the door posts, not my sins. (this is the sinless perfection I was talking about) God sees no sins through the blood of the Lamb! Now, is the blood applied to the doorposts? ...this is what should be asked about.

I not saying that I have obtained sinless perfection in the flesh, or cannot be tempted to sin, or that I am sin free and without fault in my life, I have many faults...I am saying that only that through the cross of Christ I have no sin, because Jesus took them away. Whether you accept this or not, this is sinless perfection! ...yet not by works, but only through faith in Christ. (righteousness by faith) Not so hard to understand.

BTW I am not a new Christian, not a novice. I accepted Jesus as my savior at 9, learned to follow Him at 18, backslid in my 20's had a bad marriage, got away from God again, and God brought me to repentance again a couple of years ago. I have had some very profound experiences in the Lord throughout the entire history of my lifetime, I am sorry if you feel I was bragging about them, I assure you this is not the case. I thank God for His mercy in my life (and that is the point) and how that He has appeared to me as He has to others.

How is your lighting business going? Before you shine a light on to someone else's sins, please take a look at your own first. With a high and mighty arm God brought me back to Him, and I am grateful, forever and eternally grateful for it.

There is a storm coming...

I know why Tribulation comes, and I can't wait for it. I can't wait to see the Lord Jesus come again...when the saints of God are finally united together as one, and one in purpose, and one in heart, and pull for each other, and love each other, and help each other, and build each other up in the holy faith, instead of tear each other down. We are so divided as Christians, and I am so looking forward to when this finally ends. It's coming.

We will see it, it's coming and the Lord will do it by bringing the Church through Great Tribulation in order to make her white. He will make us work together...there is a revival coming...not a tent revival of traveling faith healers, but an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God, and this is going global, and will come during of Great Tribulation. I am looking forward to this.

A storm is coming brother...time to get ready.

During the time of unprecedented persecution and murder of Christians during this time, and in the midst of all the global chaos, there will be a an unprecedented revival and a move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day...So powerful will be this move of God - for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit to strengthen and purify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be holy and pure - without spot or blemish, her gown will be white....many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival. This forum is about wanting revival, that's good, because it is coming.





_________________
David

 2009/3/25 12:53Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Appreciative

Hello Earendel,

Your reply was likely more gracious than my observation, which is a bit skewered at the moment. But I was less interested in your motivations than just the appearance of those things written, across a variety of posts and responses.

So take it for what it's worth. Give this a read, it's my motivation if I may.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18390&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Our Attitude To Corrections ~ Zac Poonen[/url]

Quote:
How is your lighting business going? Before you shine a light on to someone else's sins, please take a look at your own first.



Not sure what might give you the idea that I have not done so or do not continually - In fact it would be quite presumptuous of me if I was not speaking from a great deal of experience ... Nevertheless, I am operating on the flicker of a pilot light at the moment. Pray for me if it comes to mind.

Quote:
I not saying that I have obtained sinless perfection in the flesh, or cannot be tempted to sin, or that I am sin free and without fault in my life, I have many faults...I am saying that only that through the cross of Christ I have no sin, because Jesus took them away. Whether you accept this or not, this is sinless perfection! ...yet not by works, but only through faith in Christ. (righteousness by faith) Not so hard to understand.



Can I say that I find this and even a great deal of what was spoken earlier by Nee (Who I have a great appreciation for) all a bit nebulous? For instance:

From Nee-
Quote:
To overcome sin does not require an ounce of strength, for it is the work of the law. There is one law which makes me sin without my effort, and there is another law which sets me free from sin - also without my labor. Only that which requires no exertion is true victory. I have nothing to do.



From freecd-
Quote:
Victory over sin has nothing to do with our effort.



This, like the unfortunate chapter divisions that are latched on to between 7 and 8 and made a before and after construct, where if it is read as one continuous whole, as a letter ... I just think that it does less to help than to create more problems. As far as I can tell, Paul is speaking in a continuum and does not use language supporting anything other than present tense - it's a well worn argument around here, I digress.

But the lack of effort on our part I find very suspect -

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

If the former be true, then this would certainly be out of place wouldn't it?

Quote:
There is a storm coming...
A storm is coming brother...time to get ready. ... an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God



I am sorry, but I have been hearing this for years and find it all very presumptuous. When? Next week? Next month? Next year? "unprecedented" - These things often have like terminology from our modern day 'prophets' and are always as vague as to be applied to the future forever, makes them just that impossible and just that easy to let the utter-er off the hook. No offense, but I know the Lord is not the author of confusion and what we have is just that amongst our imaginative seer's - Frankly, the Lord is not telling them anything of this sort, I believe He keeps His intentions very close to the vest ...

Take it all with a grain of salt, this is far more speaking than I should be doing at the moment anyway.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/3/26 9:43Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 532


 Re:

Quote:
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.



The first question we must ask about this verse is, where is this temptation to sin coming from? If someone is being tempted to sin from within, then simply declining to act on the temptation is sufficient resistance. But if another person is tempting (testing) you to sin, it may require resisting unto blood if they are doing so with the threat of violence to you if you do not comply. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego come to mind. They however were rescued by God and were not harmed. But they were willing to give their lives in order to be faithful to God. I can't imagine someone needing to resort to self mutilation in order to keep themselves from sinning. While it is true that Jesus taught that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. I think everyone knows that by refusing to give into sin, you can avoid the need to cut your hand off. The point of Jesus' teaching is that sinning is serious and to be avoided, not that we should cut our hand off.

 2009/3/26 10:23Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

TrueWitness wrote:
Quote:
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.



The first question we must ask about this verse is, where is this temptation to sin coming from? If someone is being tempted to sin from within, then simply declining to act on the temptation is sufficient resistance.



Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted? It starts early in life before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (Garden of Eden?). They can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind. These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, draw people to sin against the will of God starting early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind.

They war against all believers this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ, and try and form a person into their image...and this is their war with and against God.

Therefore it is written:

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13



Be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt you to(target your mind), ...equip yourself with knowledge, so that you may be able to fight the good fight:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8

If satan/demons were bound and removed from influencing us, would there be any temptation to sin? - probably not... but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ.

I have always believed that satan needs to get permission from God first before he can tempt or even harass a saint to sin (think of Job)...he does this by accusing us constantly day and night before God.

...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and doesn't get permission to tempt us, what do you think will happen on the earth?

Pay attention to this:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, [b]“Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come[/b], for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Rev 12:7-10

No accuser before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to harass a saint, which means there will be revival on the earth unfettered from any hinderance!!! ...But it will come during the Great Tribulation (a great and terrible storm is coming) which is before us now. This time of the Great Tribulation will be the time where the Bride of the Lamb has made herself ready.

Just imagine what the millennial reign of Christ will be like on earth, when all demons and satan is bound for a thousand years.


For me personally, I have found fasting chastises the flesh fairly well, the constant hunger pains is as a constant prayer before God...at least keeps my mind focused on God during the day. And God honors these kinds of efforts towards Him.


_________________
David

 2009/3/26 10:41Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Hello Earendel,

Your reply was likely more gracious than my observation, which is a bit skewered at the moment. But I was less interested in your motivations than just the appearance of those things written, across a variety of posts and responses.

So take it for what it's worth. Give this a read, it's my motivation if I may.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18390&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Our Attitude To Corrections ~ Zac Poonen[/url]





I can understand your motivation, but your judgment and your understanding in how you addressed what I wrote are incorrect. But that's okay, I don't hold it against you. ;-) The downside side to online forums, is that they don't always relay what is actually being said, and without being able to discuss/articulate in person, the point might being made, sometimes does not get through.

A word for you to consider though...

It is dangerous for a person to set himself up as the singular or sole or lone authority by himself, especially when council given may not be God inspired, and may very well be dangerous to some.

always get consensus in judgement...

Where no advice is, the people fall; but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14

Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
Proverbs 15:22


Now consider the words of the Apostle John concerning those who set themselves up as a sole/singular authority:

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. 3 John 1:9-11

Now the issue of this website is to promote genuine revival, it is a meeting place for people to learn about this and discuss it. A place where people (hopefully Christians) can meet and talk to each other about the things of God. The theme is genuine revival and I truly hope to contribute to that end. Let's work to that end shall we?


On another issue, I truly believe we are in the times just before the Great Tribulation for many reasons. I have studied it, and as well I have had visions concerning it.

A good website for discussing endtimes prophecy in light of scripture is http://www.christian-forum.net
the site is down right now, but hopefully will be back up soon. There are a couple of scholars there. If you visit, pay attention to benny and stephen, gideon has some valid points as well. Lois, is very keen on world events. Keep your eyes on Israel... endtimes prophecy involves them and what happens there.
Preterists and partial preterists views are wrong and pretty much rejected by all, but they try sometimes. It's a good place to learn about endtimes. All those there pretty much agree that we are there now...evrything has been fulfilled with exception of Isaiah 17, Ezekiel 38-39, Daniel 9:27. Some are pretrib, some post-trib...a good place to learn.


_________________
David

 2009/3/26 11:15Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:


"My beloved is mine, and I am his." (Song 2:16)






Can't wait to get there! That I, His creation, may see Him, my Creator, face to face...and worship Him before His throne...His Love and His presence is so beautiful, so beautiful, that I cannot help but to love our Lord and Saviour like this (Worthy is the Lamb - Amen!)...and I so look forward to loving Him, and worshipping Him before His throne!

His Holy Spirit leads me into worship...He is my daily bread, His glory will be seen on our faces forever, His light will shine in us through out all eternity...Oh, that I could just capture my Creator's heart, and love Him perfectly in the heavens, and fall down before Him, cast my crown before Him, and worship before Him! Worship before Him!

Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty! Alelujah He's Coming!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWndDW_271g

Psalm 22:3



_________________
David

 2009/3/26 17:15Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Earendel,

The Spirit of the Life of Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Oh what a wonderful Savior we have.

The Law of sin and death was first announced to Adam. If you eat of the tree of the fruit of good and evil you will die. And so, in Adam all die.

In Christ, shall all be made alive. All being those who put their faith in Him.

Our faith is in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and His finished work upon the cross. We must first identify in His death to be quickened together with Him, raised up a New Creation. This is what Paul is teaching us beginning in Romans 6.

The first man Adam was a life giving soul, and the Last man Adam is a life giving Spirit. That was not first that was spiritual but fleshly. The first Adam.

Our life in Adam one ended at Calvary. We, in Christ have been set free from the bond and power death had over us, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, being saved by His risen Life.

I am crucified with Christ. No longer I but Christ in me.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin




 2009/3/26 17:53Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Amen! :-)


_________________
David

 2009/3/26 18:27Profile





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