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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i think it is simple, it means the apostle dident think the hebrew believers where in that category, that does not mean there is no one in that category.

I am amazed and i tremble that the apostle would use such language to these believers, these are the believers that:But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; for you had compassion on me in my chains, and [b]joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods[/b], knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. (Heb 10:32-34 NKJ)


that the apostle would write some of the hard things in this letter, to saints that where persecuted and where not only taking it with joy, they also could live in rejoicing when everything they owned was robbed from them.

if such people need to hear the warnings in the letter to the hebrews, how much more i? that can get upset when misplacing a set of carkeys and "annoyed" and "frustrated", that is a long way from "joyfully accepting" someone plundering my goods, home ect....

and if these men and woman needed to hear there is a chance they can fall away if they dont "look to Jesus" i will take it serius and not explain it away.

We need to tremble at scripture and not make them easy our conciseness, making us think "i am ok" thats not as serious as it says, it does not mean that really.

All of scripture, the assurence verses, the Gods keeping us verses we take very serius and embrace with no problem, but the verses that makes us uncomfortable we wanna explain away somehow, so we can continue to slack on in our halfhearted way, let us take it serious not as in frightening of " if i dont do this or this i lose my salvation"

no that is the wrong way, the right is to be encouraged and by all the power and help from the holy spirit make our calling and election sure.

These are serious things, its eternal things, an eternity of regrets or wasted opportunities and eternal voes, or an eternity of "well done my faithful servant"

if these verses scare us or make us tremble, let them do so in a way that makes us seek the Lord, i ssee my need when reading these verses, and the kingdom of God is for the needy, one thing with eternal security is you dont need Jesus anymore, you are already home safe and just walking around here waiting for his return or your death.

When i see verses like this i go "oh Lord i need you in a way i can not even comprehend fully, if you leave me for one second i am such a man in hebrews"

All things are possible with God,,,, who are we to say otherwise?

let us take scripture as they are, not less not more, meditate upon them and tremble at them.

Eternity is at hand, how we look at scripture and tremble at them will effect all of eternity

God bless


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 2009/3/4 15:29Profile
murrcolr
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 Re: Hebrews ch.6 verse 9, what do you think it means

First of all I think that in verse one where he says let us go onto perfection he is talking about the more excellent way.

1Cor 12:31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

In verse 7 Pauls is writing about a parable it's the parable of the weeds. And he spake to them many things in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went forth to sow and as he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the birds came and devoured them and others fell upon the rocky places, where they had not much earth: and straightway they sprang up, because they had no deepness of earth and when the sun was risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And others fell upon the thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked them and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
He that hath ears, let him hear.

There is the parable of the weeds and here is what it means.

Matt 13:18 Hear then ye the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one , and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side. And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth. And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? A man that is an enemy But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hope that helps you


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Colin Murray

 2009/3/4 15:34Profile
passerby
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 Re:

I am also with the same line of thinking with 'hmmhmm'.

The thing is, we must take heed of those warnings very seriously. Truly, real Christians will persevere to the end, being kept by God, but it will be according to His design that we repent of our sins, put our faith in the Lord, and hold fast to the end.

Those who are careless, those who harden their hearts and continue to indulge in sin should think otherwise.

"He that hath ears let him hear"

 2009/3/4 20:07Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010


 Re: All who are His are secure in Him

Eph. 1:13,14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The above verses alone ought to end any controversy. But the enemies of the Gospel of Grace are yet with us.

Chapter 6 & 10 of Hebrews are just a couple of those wrested by the unlearned. But if read in context and if the Holy Spirit give understanding there is no confusion.

In chapter 10 we read "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.(vs.14-18)

Sacrifices are being discussed to a people(the Hebrews)familiar with sacrifice and offering.

The admonition of the learned John Wycliffe ought to be heeded here;

"It shall Greatly Helpe Ye to Understand Scripture, If Thou Mark Not only What is Spoken or Written, But of Whom, And to Whom, With what Words, At what Time, Where, To what Intent, With what Circumstances, Considering what Goeth Before and what Followeth." John Wycliffe (1324-1383)

Hebrews 10 explains the context of 6:4-6 as Christ the Foundation is being built upon throughout the epistle. The epistle was written to Messianic Jews who had received the gospel but were now being counseled by false teachers (called "Judiazers") not to stop practicing
their temple rituals. These Judiazers were trying to combine the practice of the Levitical system with the Gospel. To gentile believers in Galatia they were teaching the need to first submit to the rituals of Judaism before embracing Christianity, and to Jewish believers
they were teaching the need to stay in Judaism.

Again,we see here the contrast between those not grace-taught and us who are. The 'remnant of the election of grace'.

There are always and only two categories of men spoken of in the Scriptures. Children of God and children of the devil. Cains and Abels,Jacobs and Esaus,Peters and Judas',and so on.

Jesus clarified this when he told His disciples why He spoke in parables.

Mark 4:10-13 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If any would be interested in hearing a brief 6 minute answer to the question "Does Hebrews teach that Christians can lose their salvation?" you may go here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=3209841246

unto the praise of His glory,

one of the remnant of the election of grace

 2009/3/5 0:48Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i think it is very proudfull calling people that dont share the same view on a small doctrine "enemies of grace" , and wrenchers of scripture.

I can call all who hold the "doctrines of grace" wrenchers of scripture because they also must twist multitudes of scriptures to make them fit their box.

Its pride and what is disturbing is you set your convictions as the standard of what others should believe.

Myself read it as it says, when it says we are saved by grace it is so, when it says "beware" , "hold fast" , "take heed" , "make your election and calling sure"

i believe it is just that I must do.


instead of letting your doctrine interpret your bible for you, let Gods spirit show interpret the bible and hence it will crush your doctrines.


Dont forget the two sides in scripture you speak of are both religious, cain and abel both where equally believers, believed the same doctrines.

but it was what was in the heart that mattered.

and when you call people that dont share your conviction of what grace is or how God saves a man or hardens them. You call them enemies of God

that shows what is in your heart. It is sad we so often have our favorite subjects, our favorite verses, if someone else mention them we go off andwe need check ourself, why is it when someone speaks of a certain doctrine or a certain thing i go off?

is it because i am unbalanced? probably so...

but i bless God there are verses that speak of Gods grace, and i take them literary, i believe what God says and trust him, when the word says i can lose my salvation i believe so.

I am convinced one thing that makes us so shallow and immature in christ, even tho we have read the scriptures for years, read theology and books in the hundreds and know all doctrines inside out, but yet we are defeated by sin and yet we quarrel with brothers and are offensive when someone do not agree with us i am convinced is this.

But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy. (2Ch 36:16 NKJ)


and so it is still today with people and their petdoctrines, they refuse to listen to Gods messenger, if it is the letter to the hebrews or gospel of john or any other message from that book.

and so we stay immature, we are still the cause of strife and divisions, instead of building the body of christ with encouragement and love we tear down with angry words and attitudes. careless and ignorant of what they/we produce.

what spirit is behind it?


i am not just talking to those who embrace the doctrines of grace, i know many of them are far more godly then me and know Jesus more intimate then me, no but some among that group, and some among the other side, and some of them in between and beside them. Let se to it what ever we belive and share, we do it with the same spirit as Paul and Jesus did.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (2Co 4:1-2 NKJ)

let us not deal with the word of God with craftiness, trying to preach what we believe bending and being selective of what scripture are more valid then others, what verses mean what they say and what verses that do not mean what they say. Tremble at Gods word.

and paul says we have this ministry....

what ministry? making others belive in the doctrines of grace or doctrines of that or that?

no, no,no!


But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Co 3:18 NKJ)

Pauls ministry was being transformed from glory to glory, and working out that would take effect in others also.

becoming more like Jesus, this is the thing we should focus on, brother i dont care if you are a calvinist or a preferred to be called believer of grace, i care if you are being transformed more and more into the image of Christ? are you becoming sweeter and sweeter to be around? your speech as graceful as your doctrines? your sins fewer and fewer? this is what matters, not if someone believes in eternal security or not.

and please stop calling people who dont hold your doctrines enemies of grace, or in other words enemies of God.


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 2009/3/5 3:31Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re: Hebrews ch.6 verse 9, what do you think it means

here is a man who embraced the doctrines of grace, but also he dealt honestly with scripture, even those who seemingly contradict what some who hold the doctrines of grace believe. That is why men like Ryle, Whitfield, Edwards where so anointed and still are today, and why ours is not, they trembled and treated the word of God with a Holy fear and reverence, we "cut and paste" so it fit our doctrine. And hence we have not power with the word of God when we speak it.


[i]The truth which our Lord brings out in this place is very painful, but very useful and needful to be known. No man, be it remembered, is in so dangerous a state as he who has once known the truth and professed to love it, and has afterwards fallen away from his profession, and gone back to the world. You can tell such a man nothing that he does not know. You can show him no doctrine that he has not heard. He has not sinned in ignorance like many. He has gone away from Christ with his eyes open. He has sinned against a known, and not an unknown God. His case is well near desperate. All things are possible with God. Yet it is written, "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened--if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance." (Heb. 6:4-6.)

Let us ponder these things well. The subject is one which is not sufficiently considered. Let us never be afraid of beginning to serve Christ. But let us begin seriously, thoughtfully, and with a due consideration of the step we take. And having once begun, let us pray for grace that we may persevere, and never fall away.[/i]


J.C Ryle


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 2009/3/5 5:13Profile
TracyInMD
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 Re: Hebrews ch.6 verse 9, what do you think it means

Very interesting. (You asking what these scriptures mean, bible4life.) Lately I see how there are tares among us and I came upon this sermon series by Jeff Noblit called "The Pretenders". Jeff Noblit is the pastor where Paul Washer attends.

Anyhow, I listened to the messages in this link, and especially here's what came from listening. The scriptures he pointed us to are the same scriptures that many of us are using to pray for revival. My own personal question has become: Are we praying for revival of sheep or goats? (Hope that doesn't sound bad, but we do want to pray according to God's will.)

Anyhow, on this page below, look for the Pretenders messages (3 total), if you are interested in this series. It may be on Sermon Index, I just haven't actually searched.

[url=http://www.anchoredintruth.org/resources/sermons/hebrews]The Pretenders Series (Scroll down)[/url]


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Tracy Hofmann

 2009/3/5 9:02Profile
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 Re: Hebrews ch.6 verse 9, what do you think it means

Isn't it time for people to stop ignoring plain scriptural meanings?

Some scriptures are very difficult to understand but some are not.

Heb6 vs4-6 is a clear statement that salvation can be lost by determined action. The scriptures that state clearly that no one can pluck the saved form the Father's hand do not preclude a saved person plucking himself or herself out of the Father's hand.

If this were not so, then sin as much and as often as you like because ultimately the worst you will suffer is loss of heavenly reward but no loss of salvation. Does anyone seriously think that is correct?

The above comments will probably produce volumes of exegesis undertaking major feats of mental contortions to try to evade the plain meaning of the relevant scriptures.

I'm not saying that you can easily lose salvation - certainly not. However, a wilfull, determined and sustained course of action against righteousness on the part of a truly born again Christian can ultimately result in lost salvation. If you avoid mental gymnastics its the only possible meaning for the verses.

Its not about the 5 points of Calvinism or Arminianism but what the Word actually says.

 2009/3/5 9:24Profile
wtninChrist
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Joined: 2009/2/17
Posts: 41
Muscle Shoals, AL

 Re:

This is talking about rejection of the gospel by the unconverted with full konwledge of the gospel. This is the apostasy it speaks of here. this is not talking about a true christian. If this verse was to say that one could lose his salvation, then by this you could never get it back. We keep his commandments because we love Him not out of fear that we will lose our salvation. ( John 14:15 ). We as chirstians have a hate for sin. when we do sin we must repent. This is done out of a love for God.

 2009/3/5 21:22Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010


 Re: No lie is of the Truth

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 23:24 Blind guides, straining out the gnat, but swallowing the camel!


We are to be-ware of any false doctrine and the purveyors thereof. Doctrine is no small issue as seen in the above verses.

Especially a doctrine such as the one being discussed on this thread which has to do with no less than the eternal salvation of a soul.

It has to do with the very Gospel of God and the precious blood of the Son of God.

Be-ware when the doctrine of Christ,the very Truth of God in His Holy Word is belittled, as it has been here in a previous post in these words, "a small doctrine".

What a low view of God and the doctrine of Christ a mind must posess if they do not see the devilish nature of those words.

Furthermore, more erroneous dribble spills out to increase the confusion evident in the understanding of the mind behind the words when this is added,"cain and abel both where equally believers".

God's Word says otherwise,

Heb. 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained testimony that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Jeremiah the prophet speaks God's Word to us when he writes of cutting an everlasting covenant,

Jer. 32:40 And I will cut an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do good to them. But I will put My fear in their heart, that they shall not depart from Me.

Not only are we given the promise of God not turning away from us, but His Grace keeps us in Christ "that they shall not depart from Me".

There is no power but of God. There is no power able to withstand the power of God by which we are kept.

1 Pet. 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice our inheritance(grace bestowed)is incorruptible and fades not away.

As for the quote from Ryle it is evident that he considered it unthinkable for one of Christ's flock to finally perish.

"There are two points in religion on which the teaching of the Bible is very plain and distinct. One of these points is the fearful danger of the ungodly; the other is the perfect safety of the righteous. One is the happiness of those who are converted; the other is the misery of those who are unconverted. One is the blessedness of being in the way to heaven; the other is the wretchedness of being in the way to hell.

I hold it to be of the utmost importance that these two points should be constantly impressed on the minds of professing Christians. I believe that the exceeding privileges of the children of God, and the deadly peril of the children of the world, should be continually set forth in the clearest colors before the Church of Christ. I believe that the difference between the man in Christ, and the man not in Christ, can never be stated too strongly and too fully. Reserve on this subject is a positive injury to the souls of men. Wherever such reserve is practiced, the careless will not be aroused, believers will not be established, and the cause of God will receive damage." (from Never Perish by J.C. Ryle)

It may be read in full here:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/ryle/never_perish.htm


Note these words in Ryle's quote by the one who posted it, "...professed to love it, and has afterwards fallen away from his profession...".

As I said above,Ryle considered it unthinkable for Christ to lose one which His Father had given Him and His precious blood shed for.

Why would Ryle or any who loves Christ and His Salvation deny Christ's own words,

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest to me I have kept, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled which he spoke, Of them whom thou gavest to me, I have lost none. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Finally, in response to your plea, "please stop calling people who dont hold your doctrines enemies of grace, or in other words enemies of God."

No lie is of the Truth. Repent of believing lies!

1 John 2:21 I have not written to you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received from him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man should teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I am in agreement with what Spurgeon has to say,and I think it'd be safe to say that Edwards,Ryle and Whitefield would aslo,when he says,

"Some things are true and some things are false. I regard that as an axiom; but there are many persons who evidently do not believe it. The current principle of the present age seems to be, "Some things are either true or false, according to the point of view from which you look at them. Black is white, and white is black according to circumstances; and it does not particularly matter which you call it. Truth of course is true, but it would be rude to say that the opposite is a lie; we must not be bigoted, but remember the motto, 'So many men, so many minds.'" Our forefathers were particular about maintaining landmarks; they had strong notions about fixed points of revealed doctrine, and were very tenacious of what they believed to be scriptural; their fields were protected by hedges and ditches, but their sons have grubbed up the hedges, filled up the ditches, laid all level, and played at leap-frog with the boundary stones. The school of modern thought laughs at the ridiculous positiveness of Reformers and Puritans; it is advancing in glorious liberality, and before long will publish a grand alliance between heaven and hell, or, rather, an amalgamation of the two establishments upon terms of mutual concession, allowing falsehood and truth to lie side by side, like the lion with the lamb. Still, for all that, my firm old-fashioned belief is that some doctrines are true, and that statements which are diametrically opposite to them are not true,—that when "No" is the fact, "Yes" is out of court, and that when "Yes" can be justified, "No" must be abandoned."

He continues,

"We have a faith to preach, my brethren, and we are sent forth with a message from God. We are not left to fabricate the message as we go along. We are not sent forth by our Master with this kind of general commission—" As you shall think in your heart and invent in your head as you march on, so preach. Keep abreast of the times. Whatever the people want to hear, tell them that, and they shall be saved." Verily, we read not so. There is something definite in the Bible. It is not quite a lump of wax to be shaped at our will, or a roll of cloth to be cut according to the prevailing fashion. Your great thinkers evidently look upon the Scriptures as a box of letters for them to play with, and make what they like of, or a wizard's bottle, out of which they may pour anything they choose from atheism up to spiritualism. I am too old-fashioned to fall down and worship this theory. There is something told me in the Bible—told me for certain— not put before me with a "but" and a "perhaps," and an "if," and a "maybe," and fifty thousand suspicions behind it, so that really the long and the short of it is, that it may not be so at all; but revealed to me as infallible fact, which must be believed, the opposite of which is deadly error, and comes from the father of lies.
Believing, therefore, that there is such a thing as truth, and such a thing as falsehood, that there are truths in the Bible, and that the gospel consists in something definite which is to be believed by men, it becomes us to be decided as to what we teach, and to teach it in a decided manner. We have to deal with men who will be either lost or saved, and they certainly will not be saved by erroneous doctrine. We have to deal with God, whose servants we are, and he will not be honored by our delivering falsehoods; neither will he give us a reward, and say," Well done, good and faithful servant, thou hast mangled the gospel as judiciously as any man that ever lived before thee." We stand in a very solemn position, and ours should be the spirit of old Micaiah, who said, "As the, Lord my God liveth, before whom I stand, whatsoever the Lord saith unto me that will I speak." Neither less nor more than God's word are we called to state, but that we are bound to declare in a spirit which lets the sons of men know that, whatever they may think of it, we believe God, and are not to be shaken in our confidence in him."

Amen

 2009/3/5 23:52Profile





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