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murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

passerby wrote:

A great heresy arose during the closing years of the first century. It threatened the utter Subversion and destruction of the Christian religion. Peter wrote against it (2 Peter 2:1219). Jude wrote a blistering message against it (4, 10-19). Paul foretold it in his parting address to the Church of Ephesus (Acts 20:18-35) and in his Second Epistle to Timothy (3:1-8). John hurled his fiercest invectives against it in his first epistle, of which our text is the preliminary summary. Even Jesus condemned it in His message to the churches (Rev. 2:6 and 14-16).



Thanks for posting both of you it has encouraged me. The True Gospel message that Jesus sets us free from all sin has been so watered down we today think it is impossible for him to free us from sin.


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Colin Murray

 2009/2/19 5:15Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Ezekiel 36v 26 "I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh."

Turn to this passage and read the entire paragraph, verses 23-28. Several things will at once impress one is that the prophet was not speaking of regeneration at all, but describing a blessing that God was going to give his people in the future. Yet here he is speaking of a great coming blessing.

The twenty-third verse shows conclusively that not regeneration but sanctification was in the mind of the prophet when he spoke of the cleansing from all filthiness, and the removal of the stony heart. The verse reads: "And the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes." This is the trouble today in regard to the Church before the eyes of the heathen is not sanctified. The reason that God does not project us in a Great Revival is that we are not sanctified, and he does not want the heathen to see the feeble type of piety we possess.

Besides this the very terms used in the passage, "all filthiness" cleansed, "all idols" taken out, all show that regeneration is not spoken of; for Paul distinctly says that filthiness of flesh and spirit is left in the regenerated; and we all recognize plainly in the converted man the idols of family, self, reputation, position, ambition, etc (that is filthiness of flesh)

The crowning proof is seen in the expression, "stony heart." This is felt to be left in the regenerated. There is a universal witness to this.

What is meant by the stony heart? The Bible, of course, does not teach that there is an actual rock in the breast, but is speaking figuratively. A stone is something cold, hard, and heavy. Has the converted man at times a cold, hard, heavy feelings in his soul? Who will dare to deny it?

It is not felt all the time. Some days the heart is light, tender, and warm. But suddenly, and at the most unexpected and undesirable of times, the stone is felt inside. The very gladness of others may bring it about. It is realized under some proposition from the pulpit. It leaps into being while kneeling at the altar. It arises at other times in the breast without any known cause.

The regenerated man who reads these lines knows that he has that stony heart. Child of God as he is, yet a hard nature is left in him or his own consciousness, and the experience of the Christian world amounts to nothing.

Ezekiel says that there is a blessed work of grace in which that "stony heart" shall be taken out. If God's children still feel it remaining, then is there a blessing to be had that they have not yet obtained; for the prophet says that it shall be taken out.

Notice that the stony heart is to be “taken out," not suppressed or kept under. If taken out, we will certainly know it. Observe also that it is God who removes the trouble from the soul; not growth, not death, not purgatory. Listen! it is God speaking: "I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh."


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/2/19 5:18Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

"may everyone realize that with every command of us that God gives, He has promised and given us everything that Pertains to Life and Godliness ."

Thank you for your post Clint. Many of us have struggled at living the victorious Christian life until our eyes were opened to see that only Christ can live this life. We have been crucified with Christ, so that it is no longer I that lives but Christ lives in us. Christ is our sanctification.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2009/2/19 11:15Profile
death2self
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Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area

 Re:

Here's a link to Marc Adams' website where you can purchase the [url=http://www.revivalclassics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BkJKRejBless]The Rejected Blessing[/url].

I saw that Brother Greg posted Brother Marc's reading of Catherine Booth's sermons from "Aggressive Christianity" too for those who want to take a look.

Sorry my time is a bit limited now, but I thought I would post the link. It's a great website and I've purchased a number of books there, including Pastor Jim's book. He's a dear brother in Christ and has preached at my church several times...


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2009/2/19 11:18Profile









 Re:

I do not see where Peter ever claimed 'sinless perfection' after Pentecost. Yet filled with the Holy Spirit, he was rebuked by Paul for entertaining Jewish traditions, as it was clear that Peter hardened his heart to the truth that he knew and accompanied those who did not know this truth. Was he a Gnostic? And Paul certainly 'grew' as a Christian man. He was knocked off his horse and blinded. Was Paul entirely sanctified at this time? He was certainly separated out by God to do His work. If we say that Paul was entirely sanctified at this moment then we know that later he said that he had to 'beat his body to make it a slave' so as not to lose the prize.

1 Cor 9:25-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

This certainly sounds like somewhat of a struggle to overcome to me, even with a fleshy heart. Paul stated that he did not 'fight aimlessly'... translation: though not aimlessly, Paul fights. Is this a state of holiness with no voluntary action despite sanctification, no growth to understand this fight, no need to stand guard against that which (sin) knocks at the door? Who here in their entire sanctification feels a need to beat their body and make it a slave? Paul was challenged here. He doesn't say "through the second blessing the fight is over, and I strive not in anything as my flesh is no more. I have been rendered to effortless righteousness as I am perfected." Did he somehow reject a blessing that could have relieved him of this fight to begin with????? Whatever he had to do he did because it called for action and because he was a hell wrecker who had the enemy coming at him like flood. This isn't heresy, this is the same Paul who, in Thessalonians, said:

1 Thessalonians 5:23:
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul didn't talk like this right after he was blinded, chastised, and filled with the Holy Spirit. There was no instant revelation to the description of 'running this race' or our sanctification. There was a process in relationship with God for Paul. He describes a thirteen year learning curve folks....so let's get real with this instantaneous perfection business. Is the word 'RUN' in the above Scripture an action verb or a one time state of being?

I also believe he was battling bitterness of heart towards Alexander the metal worker whose idol business was being ruined by Paul's preaching and was a subject of his wrath. I wonder this: Was entire sanctification around when David was a man after God's own heart? How about when he committed adultery? Jonah hardened his heart towards the Ninevites. The reality is that 'real men of God' who loved God also disobeyed and were restored either by their own confession or by God's mercy in sending help to them when they were in a backslidden state. Nathan was to David what the whale was to Jonah. In both cases, neither man was willing to see anything for themselves so God's mercy intervened. To say or imply that a backslidden state is not possible for those entirely sanctified when men of God, like Peter, (who clearly made some bad judgments and should have known better) to me is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Can those who are entirely sanctified backslide into sin....ever? Is there this potential for those entirely sanctified as fallen people? I would hope that no one is too proud to say this is not possible, we all know what goeth before the fall.

Hudson Taylor was one of the greatest missionaries and one of the most sincere men of God ever to grace Christiandom. Yet we see his testimony as he describes the process of his growth in Christ. The lives of many great men of God are described and documented as a growth process in the Lord. See, we can either insulate ourselves in this state of sanctification and just 'be' a Christian who cannot sin or fall, or, we can do the work of the Lord that wrecks hell and fearlessly open ourselves up to challenges never imagined that will test every belief we have in scripture, yet still continuing to yield to the Holy Spirit despite the challenges or failures.

I believe that those who did the most for the Lord were tested the most, and perhaps failed the most. They knew not to boast of their sanctification and righteousness thereof because they had a healthy respect for their fallen nature. Yet their relationship with their Savior was as solid as the rock that Christ is. Do we know that Paul never failed in those thirteen years of undocumented relationship with God? Did he not call himself the least of the apostles?

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb, yet when thrown in jail and ridiculed (a severe test that he never saw coming), his humanity showed in a tinge of doubt. "Is it you who is the Messiah or shall I look for another" he asked through disciples. And what did Jesus say: blessed is the man who does not FALL AWAY ON MY ACCOUNT. Was John the Baptist entirely sanctified? And was he not called by Jesus the greatest among those born of a woman? Does sinless perfection remove the potential for falling away as Jesus described in recognition of John's humanity, a reality He clearly understood if He did not provide John some encouragement?

Jesus proved faithful even when the greatest born of a woman fell short. John said "he must increase and I must decrease" and this he obviously said AFTER being filled in the womb and throughout his ministry as one crying out in the wilderness. I don't think John was just talking of the increase and decrease of ministries here but the Holy Spirit in him, a process of holiness that wasn't a one time event. He used the words 'increase' and 'decrease' as a process, John did not say: "He is and I am no longer through a second work of grace". Again, Jesus said John was the greatest among those born of a woman, He also said it was possible for John to fall away without some encouragement and validation. John was dead to sin but he was still human. Where's the humility of some here?

And I believe that "I will remove" does not imply a one time operation only, in my opinion. If I say "I WILL" get a college degree that doesn't mean it's handed to me without process. If a doctor says to the patient "I WILL" remove your gall bladder that doesn't imply that there isn't a process of the cutting of flesh, the stemming of blood let, and the repair of tissue. I believe the Holy Spirit does a work in us. I don't believe there's a one time work, then a second work with no process of relationship and growth subsequent to the filling of the Holy Spirit. We are born again and Christ becomes our all and all as we yield and surrender ourselves. But I believe anyone....yes ANYONE is capable of backsliding. Those who believe immunity to this are the one's deceiving themselves. It's an arrogant presumption not unlike Peter telling Christ that he would follow him to the grave. There's a difference in challenging circumstances to a sheep herder in the simple back country of Italy and someone in New York City. Both may be entirely sanctified but if you throw the sheep herder on the streets New York City or Bangkok Thailand there's a different set of temptations and challenges that he will need to work through.

John the Baptist was bold and audacious in his preaching of repentance in the haven of the desert. He knew his task and had no doubts about his fulfillment of the prophesy as "one crying out in the wilderness". He knew Jesus as practically a brother and even baptized Him. Yet when presented with jail and persecution, John was taken out of his element and began to breakdown a little, not as a sinner, but as a human.

Quote:

"The regenerated man who reads these lines knows that he has that stony heart. Child of God as he is, yet a hard nature is left in him or his own consciousness, and the experience of the Christian world amounts to nothing.

Ezekiel says that there is a blessed work of grace in which that "stony heart" shall be taken out. If God's children still feel it remaining, then is there a blessing to be had that they have not yet obtained; for the prophet says that it shall be taken out."

I agree with this. But "It shall be taken" describes the result of the work of God as 'this shall be done' and gives no light to anything that suggests instantaneous and permanent sinlessness moving forward. There is part of me that needs work. When I was born again I was different, no longer living for myself but for God and others. My heart was changed. But when I'm under a lot of stress at work, I struggle to maintain my fleshy heart and battle being bitter and cynical towards those who have expectations that are well beyond realistic. At one moment I'm fighting a hardening of heart and bitterness towards my superiors, at another I feel sorry that their job is their life and they have no peace and no Savior. So I fight to not be bitter towards them at them but to be prayerful for them. The heart of flesh prays for those who persecute you. Anger is sin, therefore I must confess it and guard against it in my workplace when the stress in palpable and overwhelming. If you have something I don't that can eliminate these struggles please pray then that I obtain it.

There's no debate about whether or not Christ is our Sanctification, or that He must be our life, at least that's not my challenge here.

The question is simply this-- can one who is entirely sanctified backslide into sin ,or, is 'sinless perfection' (as some call it) a permanent state of righteousness that is immune to the capability to sin and backsliding altogether?

I see nothing in the Bible that describes 'a second blessing' or a 'second work of grace' in this manner. Therefore I agree with Hudson Taylor, who, although not a 'scholar' who dissected the "we's" or the "be's" or the "I will's" of scripture in meticulous fashion, he was someone who fought hard in sincerity for the understanding in his heart and left scholarly knowledge to the wind. And what he sought, he found, not as a second work but a first work that wasn't entirely realized.

 2009/2/20 14:08









 Re: THE REJECTED BLESSING

You can read the book THE REJECTED BLESSING here for free.


http://parbarwestward.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Rejected_Blessing.php

 2009/2/20 18:29
SimpleOne
Member



Joined: 2009/2/7
Posts: 51


 Re:

We are in the process of being perfected.

 2009/2/21 1:45Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re: Entire Sanctification

hello to all brothers and sisters reading this thred of posts . It is of great consequence to see the truth as God, our Father , calls being perfect as He is perfect, and being Holy as He is Holy . firstly there are two texts posted in this site. the first is written by , Watchmen Nee and in it he speaks of the first Blessing Christ is to the believer is Wisdom that Christ is made too us. I cannot remember the title of it . Yet within it Nee points out that Jesus is to us wisdom and only through His wisdom we can see how He is too us ,and in us, redemption, justification, and sactification. Most Christians have the concept That we can abide In Jesus Christ. Yet few believe that We are now as He is , in this world. when we abide in Him . Hebrews states the " He that sanctifies and they that " are sanctified" ARE ONE .. Jesus is the sanctifier and those, who see the wisdom in letting Him sanctify them to Himself are one . someone in this thred said we are in the process of being sanctified. I should ask; is this process half complete and you know it is becuase you are sinning half as much as you where when the sanctification process started? No this is an absurd ?. because sanctification is not a process anymore, than a child is still in the process of being Human . either we love the Lord our God with all our heart and souls and minds or we do not. i hear preachers trying to seperate the heart , and seperate the soul and seperate the mind more than the bible does, to promote thier notions of innate sin , constitutional sinfulness , involuntary sin that cannot be gotten rid of until we die and this is false.Sin's outcome is not sin itself,, The second text article that should be looked at by all who ? wether entire sanctification is attainable in this life and what it is , is one written by Adam Clark called " entire sanctification " . The Holy Spirit lead me to this article recently without ever hearing of adam clark. also Charles Finneys' view of sanctification is very clear and precise as to the biblical meaning of what sanctifcation is and How it is attained and abided in . the last thing i have to say to all who want blessings that God has for you , is that , you cannot believe , be in faith for recieving, anything that you have no clear idea of . The reason for this is because Faith IS the substance of things Hoped For . and the Evidence of things not seen. Our Heavenly Father is the God of ALL HOPE. to know that i can Be Holy as He is and that I can boldly Go into the throne room and find grace and mercy in all times of need ! gives me Hope. That i canFin d , and attain abide in a place of being filled All the Fulness of God now, in this world, Because God my Father told me i could!!! gives me Hope. Hope can and will always give and inspire faith. not one of us can have something form God we do not hope for first. May God give us all new hope to be as He is , and to be as He is now in this world, amen and amen.


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/2/21 19:01Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

ccrider wrote:
I do not see where Peter ever claimed 'sinless perfection' after Pentecost.



Peter did not claim sinless perfection but he did claim that his heart was purified.

Acts 15v 8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Entire Sanctification is no more or less than the bible requires. This does mean the end of temptations or your flesh (body) it still is weak . You still have a choice in this state and can chose to sin and fall. Adam who was perfect did fall into sin when he chose to eat of the tree.

What I understand is that entire sanctification is of the heart that the Old man with all his deeds are put off anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy. That in your walk with God where you try and fight these inner feelings of anger, wrath, bitterness are taken away and replaced with LOVE.

1 Cor 13v1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

The heart that has been entirley sanctified LOVES greatly. The heart that has been sanctified loves God completely it loves our fellow men completely.

SAMUEL BRENGLE TESTIMONY.....In that hour I knew Jesus, and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love. I was filled with love for all His creatures.

Love suffers long
Love is kind
Love does not envy
Love does not parade itself
Love is not puffed up
Love does not behave rudely
Love does not seek its own
Love is not provoked,
Love thinks no evil;
Love does not rejoice in iniquity
Love but rejoices in the truth
Love bears all things
Love believes all things
Love hopes all things
Love endures all things
Love never Fails

These traits are the what you will find in your heart once your heart is purified. You'll find that in your heart what will spring up from your heart will be clean and pure instead of the contaminated junk that pops to the surface know. With this uncontaminated heart we are in a better place and have an adavantage to run the race.

All men of God go through trails and testing and great failure this is what God uses to make a Man of God. It's God ways of getting us on our knees and to face up to what we really are. Look at Jobs life he when through the test and at the end end he crys I in Job 42v5-6 5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself,And repent in dust and ashes.” God here had done a work of sanctication and purified Jobs heart because it is written blessed are the pure in heart as they shall see God.

Many Men of God testify of a work of sanctification in there lives. There is a book and it's called Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians please read this.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Please consider this portion of scripture consider who Paul was wrtiitng to (Thessalonians) and what type of Christian they where. Paul gives us some insight at the start of the letter

1 Thess 1 v 6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. 8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. 9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Yet Paul says latter may the God of Peace sanctify you wholly. That my friend is Paul asking for Entire Sanctification for these people even though Paul wrote such a glowing report earlier.

I would challenge anyone reading this post to go to God in prayer about Entire Sanctification and find out the truth for yourselves. My testimony is that in a time of fasting and prayer for no other reason but to seek God. That God in his goodness revealed to me the condition of my heart and that he has made provision for my heart to cleansed and purified. This desire to seek God came during the greatest period of darkness and failure in my life.

In the interim from that time I have been studying, researching, gaining knowledge about this work and through this my faith is growing. I know, that know, that I know that one day I will post on this site that God has cleasned my heart.

But please consider that there is a perfection commanded, in some way like that of God the Father. That there is a holiness enjoined like that of God Himself. That there is a purity offered, like that of Jesus Christ and that there is a possibility shown of resisting every attack of the evil one.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/2/23 12:34Profile









 Re:

"Our Heavenly Father is the God of ALL HOPE. to know that i can Be Holy as He is and that I can boldly Go into the throne room and find grace and mercy in all times of need !" Clintstone

No one is denying this. But where does sinless perfection come in here?

Because I see a contradiction. If one is in the state of entire sanctification, and holy "as He is", then why the need to boldly approach the throne room to 'find' mercy and grace? Firstly, why would the perfected sinner, who is "holy as He is", need mercy or grace? The fact that one is going boldy to the throne to find something suggests a need or something to be found. What is it that is lacking within us which requires us to go to the throne to begin with? Why would someone in a state of "sinless perfection" need mercy or grace? Secondly, Can we discern here the difference between having been perfected in Christ and "being perfect" as sinless humans? I see quite a difference.

As stated before, after Pentecost Peter made some mistakes and needed to be challenged and rebuked by Paul. I can see where Peter would need the throne of grace and I'm sure he approached it with boldness and with humility. Boldness is the confidence in approaching, humility is the inner heart that understands the need for mercy. I doubt Peter approached the throne declaring himself to be in a state of sinless perfection. Perhaps he was entirely sanctified... who would define and qualify that?

 2009/2/23 12:42





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