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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
Everyone can go their own way as they wish, but I am going with Luther.




If you're going to continue to challenge the faith of others, why not go the way of the Master instead? He said,


[b][color=660000] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]


You may be able to convince others that you are genuinely concerned about them denying themselves.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/27 18:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Oh really? Where did our Lord consider entertaining hypothetical questions that lay aside His New Covenant promise of salvation?



Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32). This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Though He knew He would be three days in the heart of the earth Matt 12:40, as far as He was concerned at that time, His sacrifice and payment was a dedication to [i]eternal[/i] damnation. THIS is what caused the sweat of blood. The very thought of that to be done on one’s behalf, ought to cause one to melt in their steps. Nevertheless, it was of the Father’s good will that Christ is not there still. That is the good will that the believer can trust even as Christ through His human nature trusted, to the very depths of hell, and back again.

Back to a quote I posted earlier.

"I will very gladly spend and be spent for you." [b]For those who truly love God with a love that comes from the Holy Spirit these words are most wonderful. Such never seek what is their own, but they are willing to suffer hell and damnation, in order that God's will might be accomplished. So also Christ was condemned and forsaken more than all His saints. He did not suffer lightly, as some say, but [u]really and truly dedicated Himself to God the Father for eternal damnation to save us.[/u] In this His saints must imitate Him; and the greater their love, the more willingly and readily will they be able to do it."[/b]- Martin Luther

I'm done now too.

Old Joe

 2009/1/27 18:42
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty.






[b][color=000000]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [i]our[/i] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. [/color][/b]


- Hebrews 12:2(KJV)


I don't find any correspondence here, or with the 'interesting question' that was and continues to be raised here.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/27 18:52Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi OldJoe...

Quote:
Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32). This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Though He knew He would be three days in the heart of the earth Matt 12:40, as far as He was concerned at that time, His sacrifice and payment was a dedication to eternal damnation.

I don't see it that way. In fact, as ChrisJD pointed out, Jesus endured the cross because of "the joy that was set before him" (Hebrews 12:1-2). Moreover, Christ chose this plan of salvation (to lay down His life as the sacrifice for sin) BEFORE he came to Earth. While his earthly tabernacle might have had moments of concern, He still retained the sinless mind of Christ (without doubting this plan). I just don't see any Scriptural evidence to support your accusation.

Yet...in a way...this doesn't truly defend your initial question. We are talking about whether or not we should express a willingness to go to Hell even though it brings into question the truth about the New Covenant promise of salvation. It is one thing to provoke one another into trusting God in all things. It is another matter altogether to provoke us to consider the truthfulness of God's promise of eternal life. I just don't see how that fits into all of your reasoning.

Please do not take this personally, brother. I simply think that Martin Luther, if this is what he was trying to get at, was VERY wrong with this sort of suggestion. Jesus didn't risk eternity in Hell when He made the decision to be the perfect, sacrificial Lamb for us. After all, He knows the End from the Beginning. More importantly: We are supposed to trust God's Word...not to question it.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/27 19:40Profile
graceamazed
Member



Joined: 2008/11/3
Posts: 77
Tennessee

 Re:

Quote:
Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32).



Old_Joe,
I would have to agree with the others on this point and another scripture I would point out is in John 17 when Christ prayed for the Father to restore to Him the glory which He had with Him from the beginning. I would also point out the passages when Christ spoke of going to prepare a place for those who followed Him (and that place was not in Hell).


_________________
Buck Yates

 2009/1/27 22:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:

graceamazed wrote:
Quote:
Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32).



Old_Joe,
I would have to agree with the others on this point and another scripture I would point out is in John 17 when Christ prayed for the Father to restore to Him the glory which He had with Him from the beginning. I would also point out the passages when Christ spoke of going to prepare a place for those who followed Him (and that place was not in Hell).



The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.

Those who understand that salvation cannot be lost generally don't have any problems with displacing their position in Christ and therefore grasp the concept quite easily.

Ever hear the old adage, "the Lord takes the desire for the deed"? It applies to good desires as well as evil ones.


Old Joe

 2009/1/27 23:23
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Joe...

Quote:
The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.

Those who understand that salvation cannot be lost generally don't have any problems with displacing their position in Christ and therefore grasp the concept quite easily.

...and yet your initial question in this thread seems to suggest that our "salvation" might not even be certain! You asked us to hypothesize what our reaction might be if God wanted for us to go to Hell even though we have called upon Him in truth.

In addition, I have a concern with your declaration that "...[i]those of us who understand that salvation cannot be lost[/i]..." You might want to change your statement to "...[i]and those of us who [u]are persuaded[/u] that our salvation cannot be lost[/i]..." Some of us are very much persuaded that a person who has met the Lord...called upon Him in truth...can still be tempted back to their old life or "run ahead" of the teachings of Christ. According to 2 John, the end of such a person is not pretty. Were they ever truly saved? I don't know.

Regardless of a discussion about "eternal security," your original question in this thread seems to introduce a hypothesis of "uncertain security." If it is an act of trust to doubt God's Word about the New Covenant that He has promised us...then how can we say that we are living by faith?

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/28 1:39Profile
graceamazed
Member



Joined: 2008/11/3
Posts: 77
Tennessee

 Re:

Quote:
The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.



Actually, I do believe in the Perseverance of the Saints (or the Preservation of the Saints as I understand it), yet this is not the doctrine in question. I was responding to your doctrine that says: "Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32)."

This is a dangerous idea, and not scripturally substantiated, so I would advise changing your position on the issue based in part on the scriptures that have already been mentioned that blatantly contradict your idea.


_________________
Buck Yates

 2009/1/28 7:15Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Contentious

Quote:
Christ entertained the idea of eternal damnation for himself, the sinless one. When He took on the penalty for sin, he took it willingly as though it was an everlasting penalty. Remember, while on earth, retaining his omniscience Christ forsook knowledge of some things future (Mark 13:32). This included not knowing the end of the sacrifice He was about to make. Though He knew He would be three days in the heart of the earth Matt 12:40, as far as He was concerned at that time, His sacrifice and payment was a dedication to eternal damnation. THIS is what caused the sweat of blood. The very thought of that to be done on one’s behalf, ought to cause one to melt in their steps. Nevertheless, it was of the Father’s good will that Christ is not there still. That is the good will that the believer can trust even as Christ through His human nature trusted, to the very depths of hell, and back again.



Patently absurd.

Mat 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

There was never any question of His expectations, Jesus stated on more then one occasion that He would rise again. He absolutely knew the outcome of His sacrifice before hand ..

[i]Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.[/i]

[i]No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.[/i]

Quote:
The funny thing is that I am one of the very few here who believes that salvation cannot be lost, which is very likely a major factor causing the fear of reception of this doctrine. Those who think salvation can be lost are very concerned with any thought of displacing their position.



Quite an assumption there, might not the opposite be true, that it makes one proud and presumptive, suspicious of others and sets themselves up as isolated iconoclasts? ...

This 'doctrine' you espouse is based upon a hypothetical question that is part hyperbole and part thought provoking- Redundantly, some of us are [i]getting[/i] the general premise but the logic and means, the pragmatic ends are patently false within the original question. To draw off of a 'what if' scenario is one thing ... to make it a doctrine when it's a flat contradiction of the character and nature of who God is, what the Lord has done and intends, is to put Him in a corner and force His hand.

There are so many problems with this whole thing, many that are being brought out here, that it is rather odd just what it is you are after, after all.

How far do you wish to push this? The sacrifice you are advocating is practically to displace Christ Himself if this was to continue in these extremes. Take it to it's logical ends - What need of Christ [i][b]if[/b][/i] we were to give up our own selves ... [i]even for another[/i] and be cast into damnation for all eternity - Even Abraham was spared Issac and the Lord [i]Himself[/i] provided [i]the sacrifice[/i]. I know this isn't lost on you and may not be your intention, but for the sake of others, do you even care to entertain the concerns of those, esteem them better than yourself or is it just one constant rebuttal ....

Quote:
Talk is cheap, I have lived similar things.



You are being contentious brother. What you linked to came readily to mind even at the time I so foolishly attempted to paint something of an illustration, coming back later only to wish I almost hadn't bothered at all. It was limited, an attempt to give this some perspective, some food for thought. Something paradoxical in your statement there; If talk is cheap, how does it apply then to this hypothetical question? and if you have lived similar things are we to take that on gratis not knowing what they are, what you have indeed lived? If this is part and parcel of your motivation and intention on the framing of this question in the first place, why not tell us rather than leaving us guessing. It leaves all this in a sort of underlying 'you do not what I have been through and therefore cannot accept my argument', it's woven throughout these replies. Far be it from me to even hint at discounting your experience, [i]similar things[/i] to that compared to there? Why, out with it brother!

Again, I think we all are missing each other here in misunderstanding and miscommunication, unwilling to [i]bend[/i], hear each other and have gone on to contention, insinuations and the like. I am assured I have contributed just as much, even in this response - bring the corrections, they are desired - But there is no need for squaring off and being offended over all this [i]at each other[/i] ...

Pride. Deadly, dastardly ... bastar ..dly. Listen to us. Time for a revisit first for my own self;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/1/28 8:34Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: Interesting question.

I thought about this, and i later read this short excerpt from Ryles book, and it struck me it is the other way around. "will a holy man go to hell?"

no, ill post the excerpt for your consideration in the opposite , do you follow? :-)

"Every man who has his hope in Christ, purifies himself." 1 John 3:3

Suppose for a moment, that you were allowed to enter heaven without holiness. What would you do? What possible enjoyment could you feel there? To which of all the saints would you join yourself—and by whose side would you sit? Their pleasures are not your pleasures, their tastes are not your tastes, their character not your character. How could you possibly be happy in heaven—if you had not been holy on earth?

Now you love the company of the frivolous and careless, the worldly-minded and the covetous, the reveler and the pleasure-seeker, the ungodly and the profane. There will be none such in heaven! Now you think that the people of God are too strict and particular and serious. You rather avoid them. You have no delight in their society. But remember, there will be no other company in heaven.

Now you think that praying and Scripture reading, and hymn singing, are dull and melancholy and stupid work. But remember, the inhabitants of heaven rest not day and night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!" and singing the praise of the Lamb! How could an unholy man find pleasure in such an environment as this?

An unholy man would feel like a stranger in a land he knew not, a black sheep amid Christ's pure flock. The song of angels and archangels, and all the company of heaven—would be a language he could not understand! The very air would seem an air he could not breathe! I know not what others may think, but to me it does seem clear—that heaven would be a miserable place to an unholy man! It cannot be otherwise.

People may say, in a vague way—that they "hope to go to heaven after they die." But surely, they do not consider what they say. We must be heavenly-minded, and have heavenly tastes, in the present life—or else we shall never find ourselves in heaven, in the life to come.

Are you holy? I do not ask whether you attend your church regularly, whether you have been baptized, or whether you profess to be a Christian. Are you yourself holy this very day—or are you not? Why do I ask so straightly, and press the question so strongly? I do it because the Scripture says, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." It is written—it is not my imagination; it is the Bible—not my private opinion; it is the Word of God—not of man: "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." (Heb. 12:14).

Alas, what searching, sifting words are these! I look at the world—and see the greater part of it lying in wickedness. I look at professing Christians—and see the vast majority having nothing of Christianity, but the mere name. I turn to the Bible and I hear the Spirit saying, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." Surely it is a text which ought to make us solemnly consider our ways, and search our heart.

You may say, that "if you were so holy—you would be unlike other people." I answer, "I know it well. It is just what you ought to be. Christ's true servants were always unlike the world around them—a holy nation, a separate people—and you must be so too, if you would be saved!" You may say, "at this rate very few will be saved!" I answer, "I know it. It is precisely what Jesus told us in His sermon on the mount—Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there are who find it!" Few will be saved, because few will take the trouble to seek salvation--men will not deny themselves the pleasures of sin for a little season.

You may say, "these are hard sayings; the way is very narrow!" I know it is. The Lord Jesus said so eighteen hundred years ago. He always said that men must take up the cross daily, and that they must be ready to cut off hand or foot, if they would be His disciples. That religion which costs nothing—is worth nothing!




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CHRISTIAN

 2009/1/28 9:04Profile





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