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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Interesting question.

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4113

Re:

Hi Old Joe...

Quote:

Being the first one to look internally in the matter, you win the prize on this one. Well done! Do you think anyone else will?

I tried to look internally at this question...but I just don't think that it is wise to even pretend to answer such a thing. In my opinion, it is like trying to come to a WHAT IF solution regarding a matter that is already entirely spelled out by the Scriptures. God will NOT send a person to Hell who believes in Him...has given their life to Him...and follows Him wholeheartedly. I suppose that we could willing to submit fully to the notion that God would send us to Hell...yet we know that God would not send us there (because He is not a liar). Thus, the question that you asked just doesn't seem to merit an "internal" look -- even if I think that I know what you are trying to get at.

Would we be willing to suffer for Christ? Would we be willing to sacrifice our own child for God? These are legitimate questions. God asked Abraham to do something that was entirely against His promise. Yet Abraham submitted...not because he thought that God's promise was void, but because he reasoned that this was just a spot along the road to the destination that God promised (that He would raise a mighty nation out of Isaac). Yet we can't pretend that it was ever God's will for Isaac to die...and not be raised again. In other words, God's promise was to raise a mighty nation out of Isaac...and Abraham believed God! To ask such a question about going to Hell...when we know who it is created for...is, in my opinion, to doubt God's Word regarding the matter.

I apologize if response is not what you were hoping for from the brethren. I think that I know the essence of what you are asking (submitting fully to God's will...regardless of the apparent scenario). I am concerned only with the nature of the question...which seemingly causes us to question what God has already made plain from His Word.

But, yes, I am willing to submit to God in all circumstances. However, I am keenly aware that God is not a liar...and that He would not condemn me to Hell if I have truly believed in Him.

I hope this clarifies my previous post(s).

:-)

_________________
-Chris
Jeremiah 29:11-13
<///><

"Are the things you're living for worth Christ dying for?"
- epitaph of Leonard Ravenhill

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
- Jim Elliot

2009/1/26 10:57

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ChrisJD
Member

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

Re:

Old_Joe said

Quote:

In the words of Luther.

The Lord Jesus Christ said,

[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.

Love never fails.

2009/1/26 14:39

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ChrisJD
Member

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

Re:

Quote:

I am not at all surprised, I have learned to expect it.

[b][color=000000]The people here are not your play things.[/color][/b]

_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.

Love never fails.

2009/1/26 14:49

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ChrisJD
Member

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

Re:

Quote:

It is NOT God`s will that a parent should kill their own child either, yet Abraham faced this at the very hand of God. All I have been asking everyone to do here is face the issue like Abraham did, or like Luther and others preached, yet everyone here is afraid to face the issue. It only proves the faith of Abraham is very rare.

As has been pointed out several times I think, the story from the Bible that you are making refrence too has [b]no correspondence[/b] to the question you put in the faces of everyone here.

Abraham had recieved a promise and believed that God could [b]fulfill it[/b], and that He was able to raise his son from the dead(see Hebrews 11:17-19).

So, what does [i]this[/i] prove then? that is, what you have done here, what does [i]that[/i] prove?

I think that it suggests to me that a misapplication of scripture, along with human reasoning and self-willed interjections in the form of questions is destructive.

It suggests to me also, that you are not fit to handle the things of God [b]in the capacity that you are attempting here[/b].

Since you feel the boldness to declare to the people here what you believe they are afraid to face, may I suggest to you, that you face this.

Sincerely,

Christopher Joel Dandrow

_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.

Love never fails.

2009/1/26 16:20

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pastorfrin
Member

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

Re:

John 15:12-14
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

_________________
Christ is not valued at all unless he is valued above all. (Augustine)

2009/1/26 17:19

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Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Old_Joe said

Quote:
In the words of Luther.

The Lord Jesus Christ said,

[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

You don't believe me, you don't believe Luther, how about Paul? This is the verse Luther was commenting on.

Rom 9:3 For [b]I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren[/b], my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Or maybe Moses...

Ex 32:32 Yet now, [b]if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book[/b] which thou hast written.

Both were prepared to suffer damnation, not for their own sin, but for the cause of another. These are the kinds of things Christians are enabled to do and be, in the Spirit.

Old Joe

2009/1/26 18:49

RobertW
Moderator

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4550
Independence, Missouri

Re:

Quote:

Both were prepared to suffer damnation, not for their own sin, but for the cause of another. These are the kinds of things Christians are enabled to do and be, in the Spirit.

I think this is true, but I think there is also a definite objective behind the feeling. There is a desire to stand in the gap and make up the hedge (as it were). But in each of these situations there is a conscious choice to chose man over God. That is a stunning consideration.

And this is the heart that breaks for sinners, but at the same time has a fierce loyalty to God. This is why Ravenhill said a prophet is a tragic figure.

_________________
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Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

2009/1/26 19:01

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Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Both were prepared to suffer damnation, not for their own sin, but for the cause of another. These are the kinds of things Christians are enabled to do and be, in the Spirit.

But in each of these situations there is a conscious choice to chose man over God. That is a stunning consideration.

The choice was not man over God, but another man over self. Far from the rejection of the presence of God they were actually encapsulated in it in the imitation of Christ.

Who but God can enable man to be filled with such trust of God in the behalf of the souls of men as they were? Nay, it is so far from a choice of man over God, it is the ultimate choice of God over man, specifically over self.

Has anyone here ever cried out to God in such a manner so as to be damned that another may be saved? Only then can you know how close to God you really can be.

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
And this is the heart that breaks for sinners, but at the same time has a fierce loyalty to God.

Indeed.

Old Joe

2009/1/26 19:45

ccchhhrrriiisss
Member

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4113

Re:

Hi OldJoe...

Quote:

Has anyone here ever cried out to God in such a manner so as to be damned that another may be saved? Only then can you know how close to God you really can be.

The point is...we don't have to be damned for another to be saved. We can BOTH be saved.

Your example of Moses...and Paul...are actually counterintuitive to your original question. Their statements were an act of love for sinful people...and not to be confused with the "will of God." Through their examples, we learned that a person cannot be more forgiving than God. It was NOT God's will to curse Paul the Apostle...even if Paul was willing to do anything for the lost.

We can certainly love the lost like that. But we need to be aware of the Lord's Word in this matter. God is NOT WILLING for ANYONE to perish. If we come to Him and believe in Him...and continue to walk with Him until the end, there is NO CHANCE that we will go to Hell when we die.

:-)

2009/1/26 20:02

Profile

Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi OldJoe...
Quote:
Has anyone here ever cried out to God in such a manner so as to be damned that another may be saved? Only then can you know how close to God you really can be.
The point is...we don't have to be damned for another to be saved. We can BOTH be saved.

Your example of Moses...and Paul...are actually counterintuitive to your original question. Their statements were an act of love for sinful people...and not to be confused with the "will of God." Through their examples, we learned that a person cannot be more forgiving than God. It was NOT God's will to curse Paul the Apostle...even if Paul was willing to do anything for the lost.

We can certainly love the lost like that. But we need to be aware of the Lord's Word in this matter. God is NOT WILLING for ANYONE to perish. If we come to Him and believe in Him...and continue to walk with Him until the end, there is NO CHANCE that we will go to Hell when we die.

:-)

You are still missing the point.

Like Christ, both Paul and Moses were [i]willing[/i] to be damned for the sake of the lost. This is not about any chance of them going there, but of the willingness of their hearts to deny self to the utmost. A total forsaking of your own will and desires for the will and desires of God, come what may.

People can talk of self-denial, but when the rubber hits the road all it usually amounts to is a show of vain-glory. When one is personally [i]willing[/i] to deny self in the ultimate sense (as were Paul and Moses, and Luther described so well), then it is that Christ is evident in the believer. Until then, the entire profession may be nothing other than a show of vain-glory.

All:
I did not start this thread see you write down whether you are or aren't willing to deny yourself, because your writing of it most often proves meaningless. I started this thread for each of us to see within our own hearts if we would actually be willing to be damned were it really the will of God in our life. It is to help with our own self-determination of the denial of self and the yieldedness of each to the will of God.

There are different kinds of people that profess to be Christians, and each react differently when prodded in manners outside their beaten paths. It is kind of like the difference between a bell and an old burlap sack. If one takes a stick and strikes a bell, unable to deny itself, it cries out with much loudness about how it was offended; whereas if one strikes a sack, the sack patiently and quietly yields to the blow.

Now it is obvious that there are a whole bunch of ringing bells here, but I encourage everyone to take a lesson from the sack and yield to the will of God, come what may.

Old Joe

2009/1/26 21:07