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 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Question: "[i]Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell if that were God's will for you[/i]?"

Answer (as HmmHmm pointed out): [color=660000]"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." [/color]

In other words, it is NOT God's will for anyone to perish. Period.



It is NOT God`s will that a parent should kill their own child either, yet Abraham faced this at the very hand of God. All I have been asking everyone to do here is face the issue like Abraham did, or like Luther and others preached, yet everyone here is afraid to face the issue. It only proves the faith of Abraham is very rare.


Old Joe

 2009/1/25 22:45
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Joe,

The thread you started stated about being condemned to hell. There is no mention about going to hell and then God miraculously raising you from hell.

Abraham was not asked to condemn his Son to hell. He was asked to offer his son as a sacrifice believing in the promise of God that he can not lie. The bible says in Hebrews chapter 11 that Abraham believed that God was able to raise him from the death.

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Christ is the seed of Abraham from whom the promise has come. Abraham offering Isaac is the antitype of God offering his own Son. This will never be repeated just like the offering of Jesus as the supreme sacrifice will never be repeated. God has told us that sacrificing children was an abomination to God.

You mentioning Abraham have nothing to do with someone being asked to be condemned to hell. Your reasoning makes no sense at all. Abraham believed that the promised seed was in Isaac and he believed God so strongly that he was willing to sacrifice his Son accounting that God able to raise him up, even from the dead, from where also he received him in a figure. The bible says that we are saved by believing in the sacrifice of his Son and that he raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved.

In Christ Love


 2009/1/25 23:47Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Joe...

Quote:
It is NOT God`s will that a parent should kill their own child either, yet Abraham faced this at the very hand of God.


But this was NOT the will of God for Abraham. Abraham was stopped before he ever laid his hand upon his son. In fact, it was NEVER the will of God for Isaac to be killed. Abraham knew God's promise. Like rbanks reminded us, Abraham reasoned that God would not break His promise to make a nation out of Isaac, so he reasoned that God could raise Isaac from the dead.

You are asking a question that was already answered by Jesus himself. You are introducing a hypothetical scenario that is just unBiblical. We already know that God doesn't want ANYONE to perish. He doesn't predetermine for ANYONE to go to Hell...because He gave His life for ALL the world. He doesn't want for ANYONE to perish. How can we ask a question...and then attribute this fictional, unBiblical scenario to an act of faith reminiscient of Abraham?

If you want to relive the scenario of Abraham, then why not ask whether any of us would be willing to do what Abraham was asked to do? Yet you are introducing the possibility that it is God's will that some who know Him and follow Him will go to Hell. Where, dear brother, do you even find this in the Scriptures? It seems that the body of Scriptures very clearly point otherwise.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/26 0:22Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Facing

Quote:
All I have been asking everyone to do here is face the issue like Abraham did, or like Luther and others preached, yet everyone here is afraid to face the issue. It only proves the faith of Abraham is very rare.



Hi Old Joe,

Maybe we are missing your overall premise after all. I will face it.

No, I do not have the faith of Abraham.

This reminds me of Zac Poonen when he was here last speaking on the use of money and a mention that he did not have the faith of George Mueller, that kind of faith - It was just a very frank admission.

It is probably just as likely obvious to you our issues in the way this was framed, this question, so it seems to be belaboring the point to go on much more about it.

Another verse came to mind that might run somewhat along the line you were drawing;

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And strangely enough I want to put them out of sequence;

[i]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/i] Rom 9:20,21

It is after all a "What if" sort of question.

But ... sure you anticipated this 'but' ... Using these verses is taking things a bit out of context just as well. I still come back to a thought I have had running for awhile about [i]incidents[/i] and [i]precedents[/i] in the scriptures. Abraham and Issac is an incident though it was more profoundly expected by Jesus.

I can see where this could just get bogged down now that I think about it. As difficult as it might sound, Abraham did not have our struggles nor we his. They are just different. How would any of us react, how [i]should[/i] we react?

No offense but I have a hard enough time with things that are actual then to concern myself with things abstract and 'possible'. Being condemned to hell ... and being wiling to accept that? I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/1/26 0:27Profile
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re: Interesting question.

As the word says, that is where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So could anybody be prepared for it?
I think not.
Tozer was noble in his attitude, but when faced with the holy judgments of God I think the whining will begin.


_________________
howard

 2009/1/26 0:28Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Old_Joe,

You said,


"I guess you don't read or hear many sermons then, since they are in the preacher's own words."


We are not here talking about the words of other men, but [b]yours[/b].




_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/26 5:52Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Crssck's: Being condemned to hell ... and being wiling to accept that? I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.



I am often concerned by questions that come up seeking to tap the greatest extremes in our willingness to glorify God and do His will. These 'what if' questions often run contrary to the revealed character of God. So then the question itself should be called into question.

Paul writes in Romans 9:

[color=000066] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ [u]for[/u] my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [/color]

Paul speaking under inspiration of God and full of His love makes this statement, not just to glorify God in some abstract sense (as if God could be glorified by sending one of His children to Hell without cause or purpose), but saying in effect- if it would save the many, I the one would trade place with [i]them[/i].

To arbitrarily volunteer to go to hell for eternity after Christ has died for the sins of the whole would would be to rob the Lamb that was slain of one more soul that constitutes the 'reward of His suffering'. So how can we in one breath declare- "May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of his suffering" while simultaneously volunteering to go to Hell- without contradiction?



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/26 7:55Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Amen RobertW,

Paul was full of the love of God and following in the footsteps of Christ.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Christ was cursed for all of us but he was not condemned to hell and I don't believe Paul was talking about being condemn to hell either.

People who really love God want to be with God no matter what they are called to go through.

Christ can strengthen me to go through anything for a little while for his glory but in the end I will be with him.

Blessings!

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Crssck's: Being condemned to hell ... and being wiling to accept that? I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.



I am often concerned by questions that come up seeking to tap the greatest extremes in our willingness to glorify God and do His will. These 'what if' questions often run contrary to the revealed character of God. So then the question itself should be called into question.

Paul writes in Romans 9:

[color=000066] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ [u]for[/u] my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [/color]

Paul speaking under inspiration of God and full of His love makes this statement, not just to glorify God in some abstract sense (as if God could be glorified by sending one of His children to Hell without cause or purpose), but saying in effect- if it would save the many, I the one would trade place with [i]them[/i].

To arbitrarily volunteer to go to hell for eternity after Christ has died for the sins of the whole would would be to rob the Lamb that was slain of one more soul that constitutes the 'reward of His suffering'. So how can we in one breath declare- "May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of his suffering" while simultaneously volunteering to go to Hell- without contradiction?



 2009/1/26 9:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
All I have been asking everyone to do here is face the issue like Abraham did, or like Luther and others preached, yet everyone here is afraid to face the issue. It only proves the faith of Abraham is very rare.



Hi Old Joe,

Maybe we are missing your overall premise after all. I will face it.

No, I do not have the faith of Abraham.


Being the first one to look internally in the matter, you win the prize on this one. Well done! Do you think anyone else will?
Quote:

crsschk wrote:
I do not think you should be at all surprised by the responses you are getting here brother.


Thanks Mike

I am not at all surprised, I have learned to expect it.

Old Joe

 2009/1/26 9:18









 Re:

In the words of Luther.

"I will very gladly spend and be spent for you." For those who truly love God with a love that comes from the Holy Spirit these words are most wonderful. Such never seek what is their own, but they are willing to suffer hell and damnation, in order that God's will might be accomplished. So also Christ was condemned and forsaken more than all His saints. He did not suffer lightly, as some say, but really and truly dedicated Himself to God the Father for eternal damnation to save us. In this His saints must imitate Him; and the greater their love, the more willingly and readily will they be able to do it."- Martin Luther

Old Joe

 2009/1/26 9:19





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