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Discussion Forum : General Topics : women/girls wearing makeup

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:
What would the Lord have to do to convince you not to bite into that apple?

I'm not sure whose question this was...but it wasn't the question of this young sister. She was asking for opinions...and NOT for opinions that are repackaged as absolutes or the ultimate thoughts of God in the matter. Why is it so difficult to distinguish between the two in such matters?
Quote:
If you only rely upon what you know and what you see, you will eat the poison apple.

Again: Are you saying that this issue is a "poison apple?" That is quite a bold statement to make! It implies that no one else's thoughts in this matter are valid because you seem to KNOW (without any question) the answer to this little sister's question...and anyone else's opinion leads to death. It reminds me of the men of Gilgal warning Elisha, "[i]O thou man of God, there is death in the pot[/i]!" (II Kings 4:40). Elisha wasn't too concerned about it at all.
Quote:
It is only in Him that one can be ABSOLUTELY sure that they will not bite into a poison apple. But we must lay aside our intellectualizing, justifying, and quantifying in order to hear His voice. We must humble ourselves and ask Him what He would have us to do. We must listen for His answer and be prepared to obey. We must quit trying to steer the boat onto our own shore for He is our only safe harbor. Only He knows the truth - because He alone is Truth.

So we are to take your opinion...what you think is truth...and obey it...even though the Word is not entirely clear on the subject? Could you give me the precise scriptures that you base this view of the "poison apple" upon? What "truth" from God's Word has led you to this? And why would you assume that anyone who disagrees with your view or offers a variant in perspective is "intellectualizing, justifying, and quantifying?" Is this such an obvious "black and white" issue from the Word? Is there no grace left for those with whom you disagree?

I really feel that the "poison apple" analogy is a bad choice. It can be used to apply to any sort of sectarian belief. I have heard similar analogies from people who would espouse doctrinal "requirements of the faith" regarding issues like specific views on eschatology, Bible translations, rules on propriety in dress, music, oneness persuasions, the "prosperity" message, etc... My mom once attended a Bible study where the leader preached that women who shaved their legs were immoral because they were going against nature. Some of these are so "firm" in their beliefs that they are willing to point at the rest of us and call our views "lies." If we aren't careful, we will be like those who are willing to call anything we disagree with a "poison apple" or "unclean."

I think that we need to be clear with this young sister. This is not an "open/shut" case from God's Word. This is not a doctrine that is exceedingly clear from God's Word, nor one that salvation is based upon. We should not present our advice as if it is the very thoughts of God. We can certainly present our thoughts regarding the matter...but only if they are clearly defined as OUR thoughts regarding our endeavor to find Biblical truth. Too often, I think that the line between TRUTH and BELIEF becomes fuzzy in our presentation to others.

:-(

*EDIT*
Let me make this clear: I am not espousing makeup as a fine thing to do. I am simply saying that I don't know the ultimate answer to the question. My wife and I have prayed about it, and we don't feel that the Lord prohibits it if it is done in a natural, non-vain or non-selfseeking manner. Yet I hope that I am clear that this is our BELIEF and not something that we know for certainty from the Lord. I believe that there is grace offered from God from this, because we sought an answer with a clear conscience, and we feel the liberty as such with a clear conscience.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/3 12:55Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

Chris,

Define “the Word.”

You do not realize it, but you are asking me to deny my Lord. He has made known to me that which He would have me to do in this matter. For me to say otherwise would be to forsake Him - for He is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). There are other matters in which I am not clear, but that is because I am letting my selfish inclinations get in the way of the hearing of His truth.

Psalm 40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

 2009/1/3 16:49Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:
You do not realize it, but you are asking me to deny my Lord. He has made known to me that which He would have me to do in this matter. For me to say otherwise would be to forsake Him - for He is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). There are other matters in which I am not clear, but that is because I am letting my selfish inclinations get in the way of the hearing of His truth.

No, sister, not in the least! I am not asking you to "deny my Lord" (and I don't even know how you could even get that from my posts). Rather, I would like for you to distinguish between what you THINK you hear the Lord telling you in this situation and what is undeniable truth from God's Word. We MUST keep that distinction if we are going to be honest servants of God. We can't run around sharing our convictions and beliefs as if they are absolutely God's thoughts in this matter! That is ALL that I am saying in regard to this.

I fully appreciate the verses that you shared...but they do not bring any evidence that a person can share their belief (one that is not entirely spelled out by the Word) as if it were an absolute. Poison apple? What would this website (and our churches) be like if each person called the practices of others "poison apples" simply because we do not think that such things are proper? There are many, many things (practices, doctrines, preferences, etc...) that I do not agree with. However, I think that we should be able to distinguish in our words just what we believe to be true from what is UNDENIABLE truth found in the Word of God. This issue (makeup) just isn't directly spelled out in the Word of God (no matter how much a person would like to believe that it is). Yes, the Word speaks of modesty...and dress -- but not specifically about makeup. There are many different opinions of what the Lord might think of such things...and even after much prayer, we should not suppose that we hold a monopoly on the thoughts of God. Why? We are still limited to our flawed humanity and the mistakes that we are prone to.

I certainly think that we should be able to share what we THINK about this matter...and why. But I feel that we should be very careful about the way we present our views. I fear that we may be putting words into God's mouth...when this might not be the wisest thing to do (when matters are not entirely clear from the Word).

Sister, I mean nothing personal by this (and I think you know that). I just feel that this website would be a terrible place if we all shared our particular views as if they were the only ones that count -- because there are quite a few people from different beliefs with a plethora of views on some matters. It would be difficult to share if everyone else "knows" that they are right and everyone else is wrong.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/3 17:39Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

Here are three stories in the Bible that talk of women with painted faces.

2 Kings 9


Jeremiah 4

Ezekiel 23

 2009/1/3 18:54Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7441
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
And Ginny, not to speak in Chris' stead but I believe this is the root of his likewise indignation.



Mike, have you read Chris' reaction to the 'head covering' article that Greg posted recently? I sense there he is again working hard to discredit what the Word teaches. He does it consistently on issues that teach us practical things, esp. as they pertain to females and how they should 'appear'.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/1/3 19:21Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:

MJones wrote:
Good word Diane. This was the first post of a 16 year old girl. Has anyone noticed she hasn't been back. Taking a little time to breath might be good.



Brutal! If I came here as a new Christian and got overloaded like this, I would probably become very discouraged and confused and wonder where is the love and meekness? Is it possible for the moderators to help out on posts like these without entering the war? People are precious! :-?

 2009/1/3 19:24Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Time for Reflection

Quote:
If I came here as a new Christian and got overloaded like this …


Koheleth, most of us would likely have felt the same way. I don’t know tbetty's situation, or what she means by “makeup”, or what may have precipitated this question. Maybe she is no 15 yo, but someone just testing us out.

Since rbetty hasn’t returned, this thread has become more about ourselves, and that is not a bad thing. We can learn something important through reflection; for example: We need to be quicker to listen than to speak, even in cyberspace. Using spiritual language and feeling very righteous doesn't mean that we can't cause damage.

Perhaps this is a learning opportunity sent to us by the Spirit.

Diane


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Diane

 2009/1/3 19:57Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Sister Ginny...

Quote:
Mike, have you read Chris' reaction to the 'head covering' article that Greg posted recently? I sense there he is again working hard to discredit what the Word teaches. He does it consistently on issues that teach us practical things, esp. as they pertain to females and how they should 'appear'.

I'm sorry that you feel this way. Yet I feel that this is the root of the problem! I didn't come against what the Word teaches at all! I am simply wishing that people would include disclaimers when you share your views as if it is ABSOLUTELY what the Word teaches! I am sorry that this isn't clear enough to you.

I don't believe that the "head covering" interpretation that you hold is an indisputable requirement in the Word of God. But this is MY BELIEF (through much prayer and study) just as much as you have YOUR belief. I think that I made this clear in my posts in regard to the head coverings. I know that I am not alone, because there are plenty of believers on this website who don't share your view of head coverings. Does this mean that we are right and you are wrong (or vice versa)? Of course not! Yet I don't believe that we should enslave someone to our particular doctrinal views -- especially when, in a clear conscience, we don't believe that they are actually taught as such in the Word!

Now this is not to say that there are issues that are clear in the Word. There are things that are undeniable...and we should teach them as such. Many of these things are spelled out plainly throughout the Word. Yet...makeup? That is a stretch! There isn't a verse in the New Testament that says, "[i]Thou shalt not wear color on thy face[/i]!" We can try to gather supporting scriptural devices and reach a conclusion...but that is just what it is...a conclusion. Yet there are sects that gather amongst themselves those who are willing to submit to a particular set of doctrinal acceptances regarding a matter (head coverings, restrictions on makeup, restrictions on pants, etc...). Many of these churches would refuse to accept a godly and sincere woman who does not adhere to a particular set of "requirements" (since she must not be a "godly" woman if she doesn't agree or practice as much). Do you see where this leads? It is this type of dogma that seperates believers...rather than drawing them closer in the unity of the faith!

Sister, I apologize if you think that I am "discrediting" what the Word teaches. This is not true...and I am sorry that you feel this way. I am perplexed that you become frustrated by the freedom that I feel regarding certain issues -- and I wouldn't want to cause you to stumble by my views. Yet this should not be a stumbling block to you. It is a simple matter of belief regarding what the Word says in these matters. Are you saying that I am entirely wrong...and my prayerful understanding of this matter has no merit?

It is one thing to say that some could be an offense for wearing makeup (or praying without a man-made fabric head covering, etc...). It is another thing to be an offense toward those who actually feel that it might be acceptable in the sight of God. All that I am saying here...and many times in many threads for quite a while...is that we need to distinguish between what is our prayerful belief...and what is an undeniable absolute from the Word of God. There is a difference.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/3 20:45Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Hi roadsign...

Quote:
I don’t know tbetty's situation, or what she means by “makeup”, or what may have precipitated this question. Maybe she is no 15 yo, but someone just testing us out.

Since rbetty hasn’t returned, this thread has become more about ourselves, and that is not a bad thing.

Actually, she sent me a PM. I feel confident that she legitimately and sincerely wanted to hear the opinions of the brethren regarding this matter.

I agree with you. I often wonder how many people stray into our little forums...and what kind of example we set. We sometimes debate over doctrines...and sometimes, those debates turn into arguments with behavior unbecoming of believers. I will be the first to confess to this (to my shame). I suppose that this is precisely why I was commenting in the first place. Often, we speak with a "this is what God showed/revealed to/told" me in our words. I have to question this...no matter who it is that writes or speaks it (including myself).

There is a danger in this, I believe. Is it possible that we might be putting words into God's mouth with such absolutes? How does that make us any different than the false prophets who claimed to speak the very thoughts and words of God? We must be careful about such things. I must try to be "slow to speak" -- especially when I am speaking for God. This is just as true with my preferences as it is with my beliefs that I arrived to from things that aren't immediately and perfectly clear. We must "test everything" and "hold on to that which is right" (I Thessalonians 5:21). If we aren't sure (or even if we assume that we are sure), we must strive to have a clear conscience.

The Word is undoubtedly true down to the last dot and tittle. Yet there are many things in life that aren't precisely written about in the Word (at least, upon the surface). The Word of God doesn't mention what type of socks I should wear (or even if I should wear them at all). Thus, I attempt to ascertain the truth while striving to live with a clear conscience before God. Yet differences of opinion or persuasion regarding doctrine will undoubtedly remain...no matter how sincere we all are.

This is the source of most debates amongst believers. I just think that many of these sort of debates could be stiffled if we would just learn to add a disclaimer to our words while still seeing sincere believers for what they are -- children of God.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/3 21:42Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Maybe we should not assume that she has not been back to the forums. ccchhhrrriiisss said

Quote:
Actually, she sent me a PM.


She also private messaged me and told me 'thank you very much', a few days ago.

rbetty, if you're still out there reading, please forgive us. This is not how all Christians act and respond.

May the Lord continue to lead you.

In His love, Chanin

[i]Moderator: A good point to leave off here. This thread will be locked[/i]


_________________
Chanin

 2009/1/3 22:47Profile





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