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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: The Blood of the Lamb

I did not post this last night after Jesus-in-God and Dohzman posted rejoicing with Robert.

I too have rejoiced with Brother Robert since his return (even during as he shared the last morning). I continue in prayer for God to work out what He worked in during those days. (You already encourage others Robert.)

Ron somewhere on this site I thanked God for your message to Greenock. Just to be clear, I have already applied the truth you drew out of Revelation, in prayer for my pastor, and have seen fruit. However, I am particularly interested in what you brushed against in the beginning of your breakout session before you continued into Revelation. I also think Brother Robert anticipates that hearing (more of that hearing). If you have found the Blood in “imparted enabling” (grace) please share it at some point. The Blood of the Lamb accompanies the Christ of “our” testimony that overcomes. I’d say we need that now. (I see your plate is full. I’m just putting in for my wish list. ;-) )

 2008/12/24 13:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that because there is hardly any resemblance between what the Church was like in Biblical times and what the Church is like today then the Biblical model is nullified? Yet, in an earlier post you said....


I am saying that recipies for apples don't necessarily work with coconuts.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 14:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Consider the Puritans who left England because the king refused to enforce their ideal of Christianity.


I know that you are in broad sympathy with what I have said but I think, for history's sake, we need a minor modification here.

I have studied, for many years, the history of the churches in England and their responses to the political climates. The Puritans, actually they were independents rather than puritans, did not leave England because the king refused to enforce their ideals of Christianity. They left because the king was trying to enforce his ideas of Christianity upon a whole nation.

He wanted an episcopal system because it is more easily controlled by monarchy. The strife rumbled on for many years and resulted, within 50 years, in our bloody civil war.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 14:38Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Just speaking in terms of general Scripture observation, it seems that the apostles emphasized a faithful preaching of the gospel and the fruit it produces, rather than a focus on a "fresh word". Having read the apostolic fathers as well, I don't see anything in their writings that indicated a need for fresh revelation from God.


I doubt that you will find a more vocal champion on this forum than myself when it comes to verbal inspiration and the sufficiency of scripture. I am not saying anything that weakens that position. I am not thinking in terms of the prophetic word that gives 'fresh' revelation. I think there was an aspect of that, possibly, before the scripture was completed. I am speaking about the application of truth, with or without a Bible verse, to the a hearer's condition.

The essence of prophecy is revelation, but not necessarily 'fresh' revelation. The prophetic utterance applies the particular truth of God to a context and to those within it. This 'word of His grace' is not an academic exposition, although an academic exposition may contain it,and frequently does.

However it is not to be restricted to the academic exposition. There is a distinction between teaching and prophecy although each may contain the other.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 14:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If you have found the Blood in “imparted enabling” (grace) please share it at some point. The Blood of the Lamb accompanies the Christ of “our” testimony that overcomes. I’d say we need that now. (I see your plate is full. I’m just putting in for my wish list.



Sorry Joan, you lost me there. Let's talk again after Christmas.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 14:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The family are here now... so I had better go and start Christmas... greetings to you all from the UK.

Let's talk later... :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 14:51Profile
TroyorTakoda
Member



Joined: 2008/12/13
Posts: 46


 Re:

Quote:


philologos wrote:

Quote:
Consider the Puritans who left England because the king refused to enforce their ideal of Christianity.


The Puritans, actually they were independents rather than puritans, did not leave England because the king refused to enforce their ideals of Christianity. They left because the king was trying to enforce his ideas of Christianity upon a whole nation.





Yes, I believe the Puritans left because the King was trying to promote his own idea of Christianity and they wanted to get back to the Bible.


1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The foundation cannot be modified or shaped so as to suit the wishes of people. It must be laid as it is in the Scriptures.

Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone.

Upon this foundation all the faithful ministers of Christ build. Upon this rock all the Christians found their hopes. Those that build their hopes of heaven on any other foundation build upon the sand.

The doctrine of our Savior and his mediation is the principal doctrine of Christianity. It is the foundation of all other doctrines. Leave it out, and you have no foundation for our hope of salvation.

When preachers substitute their own fancies and inventions for the foundation of Christ they will not pass the test when the day of judgment comes.

There is a day coming that will cure all our mistakes, and show us ourselves, and show us our actions in the true light, without covering or disguise.

Building a church with human wisdom or eloquent speech that circumvents the cross is building with wood, hay and straw.


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Troy A Lasseigne

 2008/12/24 17:42Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

Not enough room to respond to all of Ron's posts, but would like to say the introductory post is excellent. I appreciated the need of its perspective in my own life. Some of the ensuing discussion is instructive as well. May God use it to teach us to be serious and studious, and then active about the church, meaning "the church we are part of" and not "the church".

 2008/12/24 18:36Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1075
Germany NRW

 Re: Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

Merry Christmas to you all. I had not read through all the posts I admid and I run in danger of repeaing something. Several verses came to my mind:

Numbers 25:7-9
7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them—through the Israelite and into the woman's body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

Pinehas did not have the responsibility of the spiritual state of the Israelites, yet his gruesome action prevented the plague from spreading. Aren't there many plagues that are spreading around us? It is not my fault nor my responsibility but blessed is the man would wields the spear in a righteous God given opportunity.

The Levites also unknowingly(!) consecrated themselves while acting out judgement against their brother and their friend. It was not their responsibility, nevertheless it effected their appointment as priests.

I believe there is also apostolic and presbyterian responsibility that affect the sheep under their immediate care which is differtent from the above example.

Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"


The responsibility lies with God, but he is looking for one to go for him. The bible is full of example of people whose bold action changed the course of things dramatically, and it is still so today. It would be sad to miss such an opportunity if it is given to you like this one below

Judges 4:9
"Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh.

This is the prophetic call and only few pass God's stringend prerequisites to be commissioned to speak for him now. Oh may God send us prophets who can bear reproach outside the camp and are more at home in the holy temple.

narrowpath


 2008/12/24 19:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Having read the apostolic fathers as well, I don't see anything in their writings that indicated a need for fresh revelation from God.



I think we should distinguish between 'new' revelation and 'fresh' revelation. I would not say there was a need for 'new revelation', but there is an ongoing sense in which the Holy Spirit brings a fresh revelation of God's word.

[color=000066]
13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.

15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, [u]This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.[/u]

16 This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.

18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.

19 And Moses said, [u]Let no man leave of it till the morning.[/u]

20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted. (Exodus 16)[/color]

There was a fresh batch of manna for the children of Israel every morning. They were not allowed to carry it over to the next day. Why this commandment? God is a God of perfection; if the manna came from God surely it will be perfect a week from now?

The problem is not that God's word changes, it is that [i]our[/i] condition and circumstances change. The picture in Revelation 2, 3 was a 'snapshot' of a fast changing situation in the 7 churches. The dynamic nature of their condition demanded an ongoing remedy by the Holy Spirit. We have an expression, "rolling with the punches" that means that the situation changes and you have to adjust to it.

We need the Holy Spirit to speak to the moment. We need specific direction just like Peter, Paul, Phillip, the 7 churches, etc. in the New Testament. If they needed that guidance and they were Apostles, how much more do we need it?



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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/24 19:17Profile





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