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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I really didn't grasp what the plan would be if God decided to be silent on any given day


We have a story told about the early days of the church of which I am part. It was long before my arrival here but the legend lives on.

The saints gathered and the meeting seemed to 'hang fire'. It is so easy for saints to rely on the experts to provide 'the word of His grace'. So one of the elders said 'Does anyone have a word from the Lord?' The question was met with silence. 'Let's go home then' said the elder...

It only ever happened once and the saints were left with a clear understanding that 'it is important that every saint brings his beaten oil to place at the feet of the high priest'.


Quote:
hs in the pew), normally can not get involved in the general service -- no real liberty of the spirit -- because leadership often time lacks discernment and wisdom in the "overseeing" of people and things spiritual. Often individuals will come in to hurt the flock of God,


This is always the practical issue but it is the underlying instinct that is important. Paul said that an elder should be 'given to hospitality'. I love Tyndale's translation of this 'he must be harbourous'. An interesting word. Does the eldership have the instinct to be a haven for the storm tossed or is the instinct rather one of manning the barricades and hanging in under seige?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 6:28Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I would suggest that the "word of his grace" and the "word of Christ" (Col 3:16) is simply the gospel; that Christ has died for sinners that they may be forgiven and saved from the wrath of God. It doesn't seem to necessarily be a fresh prophecy.


This is why I said I would get my helmet. :-)
If we complete the quotation we will see how Paul expected the 'word of Christ' to be in the midst...

[color=0033FF]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord; Col 3:16 Youngs Literal Translation[/color]

I am all for preaching 'the gospel' but this is not what is in view in this verse, in my view.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 6:32Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ron's This is always the practical issue but it is the underlying instinct that is important. Paul said that an elder should be 'given to hospitality'. I love Tyndale's translation of this 'he must be harbourous'. An interesting word. Does the eldership have the instinct to be a haven for the storm tossed or is the instinct rather one of manning the barricades and hanging in under seige?



I heard a while back that in a meeting a young man wanted to give a testimony that has mental and behavior challenges. He typically rambles a bit, but not terribly. However, on this occasion an onlooker (when they heard him carry on a minute) began mumbling under his breath, "Shut him down! Shut him DOWN!" This person could never be a candidate for an elder with this attitude.

Sometimes people try to share things in the Nursing Home service that are at different levels spiritually and mentally. It seems to me that we get more impatient than God does. Jesus' attitude was 'suffer the little children to come to me and forbid them not...'. I think we must have this attitude also. If God can bring a message through our enemies surely He can speak through someone that may not quite fit the mold or may frustrate some with their slowness or difficulty speaking, etc. If we make room for them God will make room for us, I think.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/24 6:48Profile









 Re:

Quote

"What was that comment of yours about 'in my opinion'? I was at Greenock and I have 'my' opinion too."

Yes, I understand that you have an opinion about Greenock , Ron, I appreciate the fact that your opinion and mine differ in this regard.

I wrote....

"That may be the case, but has no real bearing on the fact that each city or town had "the church," and not churches plural. If this is in fact the case, then it is our model for today."

And you replied....

"No it isn't because there is hardly any resemblance between what constituted 'the church in Ephesus' with what today is perceived as 'the church in Kansas'."

Are you saying that because there is hardly any resemblance between what the Church was like in Biblical times and what the Church is like today then the Biblical model is nullified? Yet, in an earlier post you said....

"He would have written to the messengers of the churches in Greenock. You are trying to understand the scriptures in the light of current circumstances. I am saying that we will never understand current circumstances until we understand the scriptures in their original context."

I am not sure that you can make both statements without a contradiction. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you........brother Frank


 2008/12/24 9:54
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: What is OUR business?


Quote:
I have a simple word for all who complain about the state of 'the church'... mind your own business!


This is a painful word, even offensive. It offends our cherished sense of identity as Christians – even our perceived purpose for existing: to change the world! It is painful because it targets an ungodly assumption that lurks beneath our authoritative sounding “prophetic” utterances, our endless complaints about defective Christians, and our frequent discussions about the ideal “church”. (There is a good reason why all that changes nothing!)

Ron’s word aims at a malicious root that needs to be put death before we can be free to be what God called us to be. Sometimes I see it in myself; but most often I don’t – because it is submerged beneath a mountain of faulty assumptions about self, God, the church, and even the Bible. For me, the uprooting process continues to be an endless battle.

Ron said:
Quote:
I am saying that we will never understand current circumstances until we understand the scriptures in their original context.


This hurts too! For it means dislodging ourselves from the center of our own world and try to discover other worlds – not only the Biblical world - but also the vast expanse of history between the NT and today. Really, rarely has any society known a freedom of religion and freedom of speech that we assume today. Most Christians have never experienced the “freedom” to mind their own church’s business – let alone the business of their nation’s churches. When people tried to do so, they typically made a big mess of it! Consider the Puritans who left England because the king refused to enforce their ideal of Christianity. They came to the New World in the hopes of proving that, freed from hierarchal restraint, they could create the ideal Christian society. It was ultimately a disaster – and lead to such evils as the Salem Witch-hunts, etc. The Reformation (lest we idealize it) left behind a trail of war and division – maybe because people were striving after the very ideals that the Reformation seemed to promise (or so many assumed). As Ron says:

Quote:
We tend to think that there must be a right way of doing it.


Even if we discovered the “right” way, we defile it by falsely assuming that it is our calling to produce this “right” kind of Christian environment. We set out to create our ideal Christian world in our own power: by manipulating the church, putting demands on the governments, friends, spouses, children, etc. Others become pawns our valiant expectations on them, and this (as history proves) leads to no end of evils. Our goals become centered on mastering others even while we fail to master ourselves. Compton wrote:

Quote:
Yet, among all the different people I find who have mastered various things, I find the rarest person is one who has mastered themselves. This is a man who is gentle but sturdy, one who is wise but not proud, a man who is aware of his own limitations yet not lazy, and one who has traveled far ahead in his spiritual walk, but always seems to have patience to wait for those who are lagging behind him.


This is also the person who is free from the need to play God, and thus free to understand others and walk with them on the spiritual journey.

Quote:
In terms of groups there is nothing larger than 'a local church' until you come to 'the church'. I mean in terms of 'authority'.


And yet, I am reminded of Augustine’s teachings: The church will always be a mixture of wheat and tares, and we must leave people in God’s hands. God will transform them in his timing and will. To me this ancient warning in no way suggests a passive abandonment to fate, but instead, a humble rest in God’s sovereignty. This view keeps us from trying to create a universal ideal – at the expense of the authentic, even our own authenticity.

I ask:
Do we need government approval in order to practice our faith?
Do we need the “right” minister, the ideal church where everybody is saved, the ideal creed, the ideal music, the ideal elders, etc … in order to live as God calls us to live?
Do we need united denominations?

Quote:
We hear such phrases as...'what the Lord is saying to the church is...'. I have been listening to this for almost 50 years now and am convinced that the Lord is not saying anything to 'the church' but I am sure He is saying lots of different things to lots of different 'churches' if we only had the pattern of listening.



Wow! Is Ron not suggesting that we abandon our tendency to project our own unrealistic dreams onto a non-existent entity?

That, to me, is intensely liberating! It frees us to really hear God!

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2008/12/24 12:59Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I can amen this whole section here. I walked in on an African brother praying in the santuary, he had a map laid out of the whole world and was clutching the globe and just wepting over it all crying out to God (he had been there for 3 days and nights). I crawled out backwards realizing that even though I have a burden for my own children like that I fall way short where it comes to the rest of the world though. I have had seasons where I carried that kind of burden, but I don't know if I could function in life with that kind of burden on a day by day all day basis.


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/24 13:10Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 robertw

Just a personal observation for my brother Robert, since you've come back from abroad there is a fire that burns in your posts that wasn't there before. the above is a very good post and will preach too : !! God Bless


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/24 13:14Profile









 Re:

Diane

That's a nice opinion on the state of the church for the last 50 years. You post is a "watchman's post. :-) Should you really be meddling as Ron suggests? Why not just leave those people alone and focus on yourself? I say that, of course, tongue in cheek, but you get the point ? Maybe. It seems that we only do not want meddling when it is not our pet subjects? Maybe not. The danger of self-righteousness is on the rise ;-) ........brother Frank

 2008/12/24 13:18









 Re: robertw

Quote

"Just a personal observation for my brother Robert, since you've come back from abroad there is a fire that burns in your posts that wasn't there before. the above is a very good post and will preach too : !! God Bless"

I agree with dohzman. In fact, I posted Robert's report on the Greenock conference on my blog. According to my own feedback, many people were touched and so many came forward when Keith Daniels gave the call on the last night. May they take the Word of God and His Spirit back to all the corners of the globe that they came from........brother Frank

 2008/12/24 13:29
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
This is why I said I would get my helmet.

If we complete the quotation we will see how Paul expected the 'word of Christ' to be in the midst...

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord; Col 3:16 Youngs Literal Translation

I am all for preaching 'the gospel' but this is not what is in view in this verse, in my view.



Ron, I still think there is a logical leap going on here. The word of grace, or the gospel of what Christ has done for us on the cross, is declared in our singing and our teaching. It still seems like the view of a continuing revelation is not necessitated by these verses.

Just speaking in terms of general Scripture observation, it seems that the apostles emphasized a faithful preaching of the gospel and the fruit it produces, rather than a focus on a "fresh word". Having read the apostolic fathers as well, I don't see anything in their writings that indicated a need for fresh revelation from God.

Honestly, I used to believe and cherish "words the Lord gave to me", however, I have since come to embrace a view that, now that the Old Covenant and New Covenant Scriptures have reached their completion, they are completely sufficient for every question of doctrine and practice (2nd Tim 3:16-17), for the encouragement and building up of the saints, and the conversion of the unbeliever.

[i]Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manner, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[/i]

Honestly, in my opinion, we will never see a growth in sound churches until a proper understanding of Scripture is reached, as well as proper church order practiced.

However, this is an interesting discussion. I am always open to see the churches grow into more Biblical theology and practice.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/24 13:32Profile





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