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 Re:

Quote ...

"Only I & 2 Corinthians, and 1 & 2 Thessalonians are specifically written to 'the church in X'. Romans, Ephesians and Colossians are written to the 'saints' in those cities."

That may be the case, but has no real bearing on the fact that each city or town had "the church," and not churches plural. If this is in fact the case, then it is our model for today.

Quote.....

"Oh what joy if genuine believers in every town and city could gather together."....

"I fear it would be a farce. I tremble that someone might actually try to organize it."

That is what Greenock was. We walked the streets and invited everyone, from the Assembly of God, to the Brethren to the Baptists and the Methodists and the Church of Scotland. The Elim Pentecostal and the Struthers Memorial church helped to organize it. God's people working and praying together. Do I feel a tremble coming on brother

;-)

 2008/12/23 18:28









 Re:

Quote:
philologos wrote:

I am sure you are right but exposition is not the only way that 'the Word of his grace' comes into a gathering.




This and your last post on the previous page .... NOW I'm smiling.


Thank you Brother!

 2008/12/23 18:52
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I grew up in a non-denom setting as a babe in Christ where the services were open mic if you will and the leadership was spread all over the place, the assembly numbered about 500 or more and the elders waited on God for direction or a Word from the Lord. Since I was so young in the Lord at that time I really didn't grasp what the plan would be if God decided to be silent on any given day :-( . however there waas always something spoken. While I do believe that it's important for everyone to hear from heaven for themselves, I also see it being important for the exposition of sound doctrine on a regular basis. Of course the body of Christ (thoughs in the pew), normally can not get involved in the general service -- no real liberty of the spirit -- because leadership often time lacks discernment and wisdom in the "overseeing" of people and things spiritual. Often individuals will come in to hurt the flock of God, like Paul warned Eph. day and night, and there is where the rub is. So while I do see God as in charge, and the apostle Paul's faith as being supremely strong in that by his faith in Christ he was able to commit thoughs fellow christians to the word fo God's grace, I have some reservations about the quality of faith in the pulpit these days. Am I the only one here? I don't want to go negative because I can see much that's praise worthy,but....? :-o


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/23 21:45Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Ron,

I would suggest that the "word of his grace" and the "word of Christ" (Col 3:16) is simply the gospel; that Christ has died for sinners that they may be forgiven and saved from the wrath of God. It doesn't seem to necessarily be a fresh prophecy.

The gospel, or the word of his grace, is sufficient for both the justification and sanctification of those who believe in Christ.

Dohzman - I'm not sure what you mean by "it is important for everyone to hear from heaven for themselves". In these last days, God has spoken to us by his Son - Christ. His words and the words of his apostles are recorded in the Scriptures for the better comforting and establishment of the churches. When we read the Scripture, and hear it correctly expounded, we are, in a very real sense, hearing from heaven.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/23 21:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do we really believe that God is able to sustain us day by day... by Himself?



Well, when we have decades of teaching that undermines the importance of the Holy Spirit to be front and center [i]speaking that we might hear what He 'saith' unto the churches[/i], it can be a challenge.


Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "it is important for everyone to hear from heaven for themselves". In these last days, God has spoken to us by his Son - Christ. His words and the words of his apostles are recorded in the Scriptures for the better comforting and establishment of the churches. When we read the Scripture, and hear it correctly expounded, we are, in a very real sense, hearing from heaven.



There is a difference between an orator and an Oracle. the point here is that God has not abandoned man to proper exposition of the Bible. God has spoken to us by His Son, but listen to this...

[color=000066] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that [u]the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city[/u], saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (Acts 20)[/color]

This is remarkable. In every city Paul went the word of His grace was present to bring this particular revelation to Paul. We do not know how it played out, but Paul understood what he was hearing as testimony to the fact that he was headed for trouble.

[color=000066]And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, [u]Thus saith the Holy Ghost[/u], So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. (Acts 21) [/color]

Here again, the Holy Spirit is testifying to Paul through this prophet Agabus that he is going to suffer.

And this is an essential ministry of the Holy Spirit in the local churches. God is wanting to speak directly into the situations at hand; not at the expense of Bible exegesis and teaching but in addition to it. Jesus said it over and over again- probably more than any other statement he repeated in his recorded ministry...

[color=000066]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;...(Rev. 2:7)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches (Rev. 2:11)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches (Rev 2:17)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches (Rev. 2:29)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, (Rev. 3:6)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, (Rev. 3:13)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, (Rev 3:22)
[/color]

How many times do we have to be told until we seek to obey this commandment? We argue about a great many issues, but who can contend with a 7X command? Churches split over the color of the carpet and I have not heard a single sermon ever preached on this 7 times in a row command to HEAR, not just what the word of God has already said, but what the Spirit 'saith' unto the churches.

'Saith' here is in the present active indicative. That is, the tense is present, the voice is active (meaning that the verb's subject is acting), and the mood is indicative meaning a true reality. Surely this event in Revelation 2-3 is a pattern of how our Great High Priest tends the Candlesticks? The churches need to know what God's perception of their actions is. This is more than self-assessment; this is what the Spirit 'saith'.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/23 22:44Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: :)

Thank You Robert, you answered for me with great accuracy my very heart. I have always sought to hear/understand the voice of God in my personal circumstances. I think in the days ahead it will be very very important to hear His voice on a level that is other worldly, that transcends human logic or reasoning, bible knowledge and intellegence, not to do away with those but to be able to hear His voice in those things. Thanks again bro:)


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/23 23:44Profile









 Re:

Praise GOD Brother Robert.

Seems we've gone full circle to [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26512&forum=40&9]12/20/08[/url]

Have rejoiced with you since your return from across the pond.


Joh 7:37, 38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, [i]out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.[/i]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.
[i]And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. [/i]

 2008/12/23 23:56









 Re:


Quote:
Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?



Well if you look at the all out spiritual warfare I am having with trying to have a forum for the women that will give you a clue. It's the "r" word--rebellion.

The fact of the matter is that it makes us all look like hypocrites saying we want revival but we do not what to obey what scripture clearly says.

 2008/12/24 3:52
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Why We Get Shipwrecked?

When Jesus was on the earth the disciples could lean upon Him for direction. But yet Jesus said He needed to 'go'- but why?

[color=000066]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, [u]he will guide you[/u] into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and [u]he will shew you things to come[/u]. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and [u]shall shew it unto you[/u]. (John 16) [/color]

This is an awesome passage. God was not only going to leave us with the God breathed scriptures, but would send the Holy Spirit to do on a massive scale what Christ was doing as an individual. We would have access to the direction of Christ through the Holy Spirit. Two things here, "He will [u]lead you[/u] and He will [u]shew you[/u]". This is Divine direction and Divine revelation. Did it really happen?


[color=000066]Then [u]the Spirit said unto Philip[/u], Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

And when they were come up out of the water, [u]the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip[/u], that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.(Acts 8)[/color]

This is the Spirit clearly directing the life of an individual. James says that in God there is no shadow of turning. This was His design for the Holy Spirit at work in the church and He has not turned from it. There is not a single passage in scripture that can trump the 7 X call to 'hear what the Spirit says' or to trump what Christ said in John 16 or the biblical recorded history of how this plays out in the churches.


[color=000066]While Peter thought on the vision, [u]the Spirit said unto him[/u], Behold, three men seek thee. (Acts 10)

And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. [u]And the Spirit bade me[/u] go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house (Acts 11). [/color]

First Phillip and now again Peter. The word 'bade' here is interesting as it is usually translated as [i]said, say or tell[/i].


[color=000066]And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and [u]signified by the Spirit[/u] that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. (Acts 11)[/color]

OK. Now here is an interesting point. The Holy Ghost felt the people needed to know there would be a drought coming. This was not an exegesis of Old Testament prophesy it was a present word of God's grace to the people in fulfillment of what Jesus said, [color=000066][i]He will shew you things to come.[/i][/color]

[color=000066]As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, [u]the Holy Ghost said[/u], Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

So they, [u]being sent forth by the Holy Ghost[/u], departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13)[/color]

This erases any doubt that God intends to be in charge in His churches. This is not just men having a 'hunch' they are called to some work. This is the word of His grace coming forth giving clear direction. (You will notice I have skipped some examples already such as God speaking directly to Peter in a dream not to call the Gentiles common, etc.)

[color=000066]For [u]it seemed good to the Holy Ghost[/u], and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; (Acts 15)[/color]

This is the gathering at Jerusalem. This is the Holy Ghost making the decision and the saints affirming it with a willingness to do what they believe the Holy Ghost just revealed as HIS will.


[color=000066]Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and [u]were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word[/u] in Asia, (Acts 16)[/color]

This really shows their resolve to listen to God. Imagine a human thought based on logic that God had said preach the Gospel to every creature and then hear what [i]appears[/i] to be a contradiction. This shows for sure that exegesis is not enough. Had they gone on exegesis alone [i]they would have gone into Asia[/i] as they intended to do when they were forbidden. They would have been out of the will of God.

[color=000066]And finding [u]disciples[/u], we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul [u]through the Spirit[/u], that he should not go up to Jerusalem. [/color]

Even having found these unnamed disciples Paul found the word of his grace. Think of the utter consistency hear. Everywhere Paul went He found the Holy Ghost speaking to him information relevant to the direction of His present course. This is the Holy Ghost utterly at the helm of the New Testament disciples lives. This is not pretense. This is them hearing what the Holy Ghost 'saith' presently and actively.

[color=000066] And said unto them, Sirs, [u]I perceive[/u] that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives. (Acts 27)[/color]

It is important to note that Acts 27 is devoted to Paul's shipwreck. Paul told the people that 'I can see' that this voyage will be with hurt, etc. Paul was the Oracle of God on that ship. And we do well to read this story and expound this story because it shows the consequence of disregarding what the Spirit of God is saying in any given situation. To have 'not heard' what the Spirit was saying would have brought similar consequences; shipwreck. how many have made 'shipwreck' because they did not hear what the Spirit was saying?


[color=000066]But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, [u]Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me[/u], and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. (Acts 27)[/color]

Paul would not have said you should have hearkened unless he knew what he warned them of was actually true and not a logical deduction based on historical weather patterns. Paul could 'see' and therefore he warned. When they did not listen to the voice of God they were in blackness and darkness and fears without hope. they were carried along in disobedience. And God was [u]silent[/u]. They could not see their hands in front of their faces at night it was so dark.

But as with Jonah so also with these Romans the word of God's [u]grace[/u] came a second time:

[color=000066]And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship. For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. (Acts 27) [/color]

If you have ears to hear what the Spirit saith God will do what it takes to get you the word of His grace. So the question comes to this; are we going to be centurions or are we going to be disciples?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/24 5:15Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That is what Greenock was.


What was that comment of yours about 'in my opinion'? I was at Greenock and I have 'my' opinion too.


Quote:
That may be the case, but has no real bearing on the fact that each city or town had "the church," and not churches plural. If this is in fact the case, then it is our model for today.


No it isn't because there is hardly any resemblance between what constituted 'the church in Ephesus' with what today is perceived as 'the church in Kansas'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/24 6:18Profile





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