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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Through prayer and self abasement God will undertake for the meetings. This was the secreet in the beginning... A spiritual atmosphere must be created, through humility and prayer, that Satan cannot live in. And this we realized in the beginning. It was the very opposite of religious zeal, and carnal, religious ambition."



What happens when things seem to get out of hand with an individual and they try to take over a meeting? Almost like the person is in a totally different context than everyone else?



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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/26 14:49Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
What happens when things seem to get out of hand with an individual and they try to take over a meeting? Almost like the person is in a totally different context than everyone else?



Then I would say (not laying aside what I said earlier about that needed Atmosphere) the person needs to be spoken to.

But initially not in the gathering, I would say. I think there's wisdom in what the early Quakers used to do. They had a name for the open meeting, and when someone was disruptive they would seek grace to keep the meeting on course, if possible, and then later two or three would take that one aside privately and address the issue frankly.

And I think we need that "word of His grace" as much for this kind of thing as for anything else.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/26 16:31Profile









 Re:

AD writes...

"So this "dressing" of the lamps must be conducted in a spiritual "atmosphere." Prayer, the Presence of God in the cloud of the incense filling the tabernacle... this must be there."

Tozer writes.....

"The world is evil and the times are waxing late and the glory of God has departed from the church as the fiery cloud onve lifted from the door of the Temple in the sight of Exekiel the prophet. The God of Abraham has withdrawn His conscious presence from us and another God whom our fathers knew not is making himself at home among us. This God we have have made and because we have made him we can understand him: because we have created him he can never surprise us, never overwhlem us nor astonish us, nor trnascend us. The God of glory sometimes revealed Himself like a sun to warm and bless, indeed, but often to astonish, to overwhelm and blind before He healed and bestowed permanent sight. This God of our fathers wills to be the God of their succeeding race. We have only to prepare Him a habitation in love and faith and humility. We have but to want Him badly enough, and He will come and manifest Himself to us."

We can trim the lamps , but what is a lamp without oil? How goes the lamp without a spark to light it?..........Frank

 2009/1/26 20:18
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This God we have have made and because we have made him we can understand him: because we have created him he can never surprise us, never overwhlem us nor astonish us, nor trnascend us. The God of glory sometimes revealed Himself like a sun to warm and bless, indeed, but often to astonish, to overwhelm and blind before He healed and bestowed permanent sight.



This statement from Tozer really challenges me. It is almost like he is saying that human nature by default wants to put God in a box. We know what He has revealed in His word, but even many of those things are rejected. So it seems as if there is a huge low micron filter that God has to somehow pass through before He is received.

It is amazing to me how the Pharisees had all kinds of laws and fences around the laws and such; but they had no FIRE. We need [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/mp3/MrNorth/hi/fire1_GWN-Fire_on_the_altar.mp3]FIRE on the Altar. [/url] What greater question can we hear than, "Where is the Fire?"


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/26 21:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What happens when things seem to get out of hand with an individual and they try to take over a meeting? Almost like the person is in a totally different context than everyone else?


Robert, do you remember that picture of the ducks and geese in the hallway of my home?

I saw it on someone's wall and chuckled out loud. It is called 'the meeting' and is an artists picture of about 30 ducks and geese in various configurations. Some are clearly 'together' and conscious of it, some are 'out on their own' with their beaks aloft, some are looking bemused.... It reminded me so much of what can be the practical outworking of the theory of some of this discussion. Years later the friend sent me a copy and it has pride of place in my hall. I frequently pause, on my way to our meeting, and chuckle.

For this pattern to 'work' we need to encourage the saint to maintain an assiduous walk with the Lord. Otherwise 'the meeting' is just going to be a performance event. One of our leaders sometimes quotes the little comment of Paul 'let them eat at home'. By this he means we ought not to be coming to 'the meeting' for our ordinary rations; we ought, each one, to eat at home. Sometimes one hears the phrase, 'I didn't get much out of it'... to which the real answer is 'how much did you put into it?' The issue with many patterns of meetings is that there is, in reality, very little opportunity for input. Many, especially larger meetings, degenerate into a Christian spectator sport. The architecture of the room will tell you instantly what kind of meeting the leaders have in mind. I know God can break through... I question whether or not he should need to!

Sometimes a contribution will apparently cut right across the apparent direction of the meeting; did you notice all those apparentlies? I do believe the God will give the oversight to the oversight in these things and that it is the responsibility of the elders to 'watch over' the flock at its gatherings. Sometimes the best thing to do is just 'nothing'. The flow of life in the blood of a healthy person will rectify many intrusions to its natural flow and even cope with alien invasions. I remember many years ago a surgeon saying to me 'many diseases are self curing if we can just keep the patient alive long enough'. The concept stuck in my mind.

If the life of God is flowing in the gathering it can 'cope' with many little anomalies. If it is a serious block to the direction of the meeting our elders will, very occasionally, just gently say eg 'let's sing that a little later and give some time to what the Lord is saying just now.' If someone persisted in marching to the sound of his own drum one of them would find the time and place to raise the issue and gently admonish them.

In all these things disposition is everything and legislation to be avoided.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/27 3:52Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
appolus on 2009/1/26 22:18:20
We can trim the lamps , but what is a lamp without oil? How goes the lamp without a spark to light it?.


I think he probably had in mind a comment from the Greenock conference where I said that the trimming of the lamps and the actual filling wit the oil was the designated responsibility of the High Priest alone and never delegated to other priests.

We beat out the oil daily but put it at the disposal of the High Priest.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/27 3:56Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ron's: In all these things disposition is everything...



I recall once that Mr. North talked about the spirit in which a person says things; i.e., if their tone is harsh and critical or angry- this should not be. I'm just trying to reconstruct the jest of what he said. What happens when folk go into an angry tirade denouncing and being pushy scaring folks?

By way of analogy I recall how Peter Jackson in LOTR used a special effect to show the sharp sudden realization that the ring was evil when someone would reach out to touch it. What happens when we have that 'sense' that there is something fishy behind the words?



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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/27 9:15Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
In all these things disposition is everything and legislation to be avoided.



Good word.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/27 10:40Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
We need [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/mp3/MrNorth/hi/fire1_GWN-Fire_on_the_altar.mp3]FIRE on the Altar. [/url] What greater question can we hear than, "Where is the Fire?"



Haven't had a chance to listen to this yet, Robert. Who is speaking?

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/27 10:42Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Who is speaking



Mr. North. I think is is one of the most significant sermons I have ever heard. At least in my top 2 or 3. It deals with the correlation between our being exceedingly on the altar and God answering the offering of ourselves to Him by FIRE.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/27 10:49Profile





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