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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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 Re:

Quote....


"Are you advocating the Witness Lee position?"

Never heard of him brother. I am really just interested in what Scripture teaches.Scripture teaches us , emphatically, that every city had its own church. Anything that deviates from that flows from man and not from God........Frank

 2009/1/17 20:39
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
[Are you advocating the Witness Lee position?



...I have heard of Witness Lee, and have a vague idea what he taught. What is the Witness Lee position?

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/17 23:25Profile









 Re: Who decides?



Then I guess the question becomes "who defines the true church in each city or locale?", and "What is the disciplinary role of the overseers concerning that discernment?"



Since they aren't from God, wouldn't you want to shut them down somehow?

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Quote....


"Are you advocating the Witness Lee position?"

Never heard of him brother. I am really just interested in what Scripture teaches.Scripture teaches us , emphatically, that every city had its own church. Anything that deviates from that flows from man and not from God........Frank

 2009/1/17 23:33
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Quote....

"But I think Philologos has given a very satisfying answer to your query. I concur with what he shared."

I am glad that you are satisfied brother
:-) One man's satisfaction is another mans frustration :-) .........Frank



:-)

The encouraging thing, Frank, is that our Lord will yet have us all in one mind (1 Cor. 1.10). From our perspective I'm sure we all despair at times as to whether this could ever happen.

But Paul says there is provision-- the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ-- to bring this about.

While we anticipate this, then, we are all exhorted to be kind and patient with one another, and forbearing.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/17 23:37Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Questor on 2009/1/17 22:29:08
Every time I see the word minister, I see 'taking care of'!


Caring is an aspect of all ministry but the root of 'ministry' is the idea of being a waiter at at table.

This word for 'minster' is

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3008&t=KJV]Strong's G3008 - leitourgeō[/url]. It is word from which we get our word 'liturgy' but it is the word used of priests 'serving' God.

Come bless the LORD
all ye servants of the LORD
who stand by night in the house of the LORD.

This is not the outward ministry at the altar but the secret inner service of God in the Holy Place.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/18 13:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Never heard of him brother. I am really just interested in what Scripture teaches.Scripture teaches us , emphatically, that every city had its own church. Anything that deviates from that flows from man and not from God.


Scripture 'teaches' no such thing. It is a legitimate interpretation and consistent with the revelation of scripture. But we cannot reconstitute a 1st century context by organising 'joint meetings'. We have no idea of the size of churches in the the New Testament era other than in Jerusalem.

a local church is not defined by its public meeting.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/18 13:49Profile









 Re:

Quote.....

"The encouraging thing, Frank, is that our Lord will yet have us all in one mind (1 Cor. 1.10)"

I am encouraged by that thought brother. Yes, He will yet have us in one mind , as amazing as that thought is. To me, its all about the seasons. You can call it seasons or dispensations or whatever. It seems clear that Jesus called people hypocrites because they could not discern the signs of the times, especially as that time drew near. And quite simply, we do not have the luxury of time, in my opinion, any more. There is the "fierce urgency of now."

If I could use Greenock as an example, just because many on SI now know of it. Its a town of about 60,000. Roughly 4% of the population of the town go to church on a regular basis. There are over 70 different gatherings of "Christians," on a Sunday morning. There were 5 people at the church my mum and dad attends, this morning. The town has a reputation for drugs and violence. Darkness reigns over the town. Now, the Christians, the bearers of light, do they come together and fight the darkness? Now I am not talking about "The Church," just the people who are called by His name in one small town.

Do you think the enemy is pleased? Can you just hear one of C.S,Lewis's demons from "Screwtape Letters," laughing at their division? There are 70 different denominations because at some point someone did not like the color of the carpet, someone was offended an an interpretation of Scripture, someone did not like the sign gifts and so on. If we look at the Biblical model, we see one town, one church. Now, today, we scoff at that notion because that notion is filtered through our own wisdom. We have deemed that thought a ridiculous one. Yet, it is inescapeable that the divisions amongst genuine Christian were and are caused by man and not God. We know what God says about unity. We know what God says about being of "one accord," or "in one mind."

And so the responsibility lies with us. It is easier to divide and start our own church rather than sort out our problems. There is a famine and a drought going on all accross Christendom in the West. When a famine hits a country, it effects everyone. The good, the bad, the ugly. A drought is the same. When the Prophet stands upon the mountain and declares to the people "choose ye this day whom ye will serve," this is a challenge from God to the people, His people. Shortly thereafter the drought ends.

So, being a pragmatists, where does that leave us? I believe that we will begin to see pastors coming together. They will put aside notions of pre-eminance. The call will be made and whoever will come will come. Behind it all will be the Holy Spirit. One can stay in the desert and still be a child of God, or one can cross over into the fullness of God.

One of the pastors from our SI prayer group is being used to share and to reach out to other pastors in his area and has had joint prayer meetings in which there was standing room only. This is a seed, I believe that with all my heart. If we honor God and His Word and do what it teaches us to do, He will enable it, no matter how preposterous it seems. The sermon on the mount is preposterous, outside of God's enabling Spirit. And what will drive us to Him and His will? Hunger and thirst. May the hunger and thirst for God's presence drive us to a place of His choosing. In Mark 1:12 Jesus was "drove," into the desert.....
G1544
ἐκβάλλω
ekballō
ek-bal'-lo
From G1537 and G906; to eject (literally or figuratively): - bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).

In Genesis 3:24 man was "drove," out of the garden. God knows what it takes to fulfill His will and if we have to be "drove," by the Spirit in order to get to a certain place of His choosing, then that is what will, and I believe is, happening...........Frank

 2009/1/18 14:20









 Re:

Quote

"Scripture 'teaches' no such thing. It is a legitimate interpretation and consistent with the revelation of scripture. But we cannot reconstitute a 1st century context by organising 'joint meetings'. We have no idea of the size of churches in the the New Testament era other than in Jerusalem."

What Scripture teaches us brother is that in every single reference to a town or city,it makes only mention of "the church." There is not a single example of the plural used in reference to city or town, only region. Now, one can extrapolate different meanings from that I suppose, but the data cannot be changed and so it is our only indication. Its not about about reconstituting a first century context. It is simply looking at the way they gathered, as opposed to the monstrosity that we have today, which is more of a Catholic model than anything.
I guess we would have to agree to disagree on that brother, unless you have a Biblical example of more than one church in a city?......Frank

 2009/1/18 14:29









 Re:

Hi brothertom, you write....

Then I guess the question becomes "who defines the true church in each city or locale?", and "What is the disciplinary role of the overseers concerning that discernment?"

"Since they aren't from God, wouldn't you want to shut them down somehow?"

I think that these are two excellent quetions. I believe, and this is just my opinion, that the Holy Spirit, first and foremost would have the lead. Can I suggest that people will go where the life is? Someone once asked me if I would go back to the Catholic church after I got saved at the age of 26? My reply was, that I had just left the cemetary and I am now amongst the living, why would I go back to death? I know that demoniac, after being healed by Jesus, would no longer live in the cemetery, His first desire was to be where Jesus was.

When God moves amongst His people, a hungry and a thirsty people, they will come to Him. "Come to me," Jesus says, "all those who labor and are heavy laden nd I will give you rest." In Revelation He tells us that "He stands at the door and knocks." If one is to open the door one has to move towards the door. If a movement comes, where pastors join forces with each other, and it is led of God, the people will come. Christians are fiercly independent people, just as the Jewish people were, but in adversity, it is unity that causes one to survive.The disciplinary role of the overseers will be that of the Biblical model..........Frank

 2009/1/18 14:44
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Now, today, we scoff at that notion because that notion is filtered through our own wisdom.


I never met anyone who 'scoffed' at that notion and I doubt that you have either.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/18 17:07Profile





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