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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:

I would just ask, what "Babylon thing?"



There's much that could be said about this, a lot of which tends to become incendiary.

I've seen a lot of it too, as you said, in both "the denominational world and the non-denominational world."

There is that hierarchy kind of structure in churches; it is foreign to the Spirit of God, is not built from the divine blueprint.

But I've known people who've made a big thing about "coming out of Babylon," and lo and behold, there is another little Babylon kingdom florishing very well.

But I'm thinking more particularly of the efforts of men to unify churches and Christians in a way that is not the Spirit of God. This is Babylon (or at least, part of a Babylonish world order).

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the candlestick was of one whole piece of gold, beaten work. It was not a bunch of separate pieces of metal artificially held together.

And so, I believe it is God's will that in a certain locale, all the true believers become joined together in a unity that is integral. In one candlestick. They are one body, one flock, with one eldership among them, and the Lord Himself in their midst.

When you see things like "ministerial associations" in which the pastors and priests of all the denominations in a certain city come together to try to work together... This is Babylon. It's not the unity Jesus spoke of in His high priestly prayer "that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in Me, and I in Thee, that they may be one in us..."

Or, you hear of "coalitions of apostles." That's Babylon, for sure. Such a thing is alien to the Spirit of God, and the Kingdom of God.

This is why it is so important, this matter of recognizing that the Lord Jesus Christ wants local churches to seek to walk in relationship with Him as head of the church... and leave the greater, the larger picture, to Him. In this way, as we submit to this, and give the Spirit of God His lordship, He will bring forth a unity that will cause the world to believe (Jn. 17.21).

AD






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Allan Halton

 2009/1/17 11:14Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that what Jesus spoke to the church's in Asia, through John, did not have individual and universal application to all of Christendom? That it only applied to each individual church? It seems to me, that the Biblical example is the Holy Spirit, speaking through John, in a role as Prophet, to the whole Church down through the ages.


Did you listen to my session at Greenock?
I made reference, I think, to our portrait in the Revelation. I reject the progressive eschatological interpretation that concluded we are now in the 'Laodicean' age. I think this interpretation has blinded us the the real significance of these passages.

I believe that all scripture is God breathed and all relevant but we have a great need to interpret and apply the scripture in the right way. First we take the simplest interpretation that these 'messages' were directed to individual local church and that the description of those individual churches and the messages given is very specific. However, there is an application to every individual and not just to the local church messengers; he that hath ears to hear let him hear what the Lord says to the churches. That is to say although these are church specific messages every hearer is encouraged to listen to what the Lord is saying to the churches.

I see in this passage of scripture all the elements, a kind of identikit palette, of various conditions. I think that every church will find its portrait here, not in the crude 'this church age is Pergamos' or 'this church age is Laodicean' . If we listen to what the Spirit is saying He will put his finger on the conditions that make up an individual church identikit.

Consequently every detail in these descriptions is potentially applicable to any local church but I do not believe that any local church will exactly fit the bill as we find it here.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/17 12:57Profile









 Re:

Hi AD

You wrote..........

"And so, I believe it is God's will that in a certain locale, all the true believers become joined together in a unity that is integral. In one candlestick. They are one body, one flock, with one eldership among them, and the Lord Himself in their midst."

Could you define what "a certain locale," means to you? We agree on much and I am still searching to see if this is not a matter of semantics..............Frank

 2009/1/17 14:00









 Re:

Quote......

"Did you listen to my session at Greenock?"

My comments were directed to brother AD in regard to his comment below.


"But I can't imagine God lumping those seven churches in The Revelation into one church called the church of Asia, and addressing them all together.Can you imagine the suffering church in Smyrna sitting there together with the others, and hearing, "I have somewhat against thee?" No, God had no censure for them. Nor the church at Philadelphia.Can you imagine the church of Laodicea sitting there in the congregation with the saints from Philadelphia, and hearing, "Thou hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name?"

 2009/1/17 14:09
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Could you define what "a certain locale," means to you?



I've been thinking about this, and am not sure I am clear on it yet.

In The Revelation, each of the seven cities mentioned had one church.

The church in Ephesus... The church in Smyrna... And so on.

It seems to me an area where Christians can gather together for fellowship-- I mean, physically, not virtually-- would have one church.

AD



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Allan Halton

 2009/1/17 18:29Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

"Did you listen to my session at Greenock?"

My comments were directed to brother AD....




...But I think Philologos has given a very satisfying answer to your query. I concur with what he shared.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/17 18:34Profile









 Re:

Quote....


"In The Revelation, each of the seven cities mentioned had one church.The church in Ephesus... The church in Smyrna... And so on. It seems to me an area where Christians can gather together for fellowship-- I mean, physically, not virtually-- would have one church.'

I agree, and if we are looking to Scripture for our guide, then it should be our guide.Here is the Biblical record...

The phrase "The church," is used 70 times in the NT. 19 OF them talk about "The Church of God." The word "churches," is used 35 times. In those 35 times it makes reference to seven names. Judea, Galatia, Asia, Galilee, Samaria, Cililcia and Macedonia. Every one of these is either a province or a region. There is not one example of "churches," used in reference to a city. If we are to just use the Biblical source, then it seems clear. Each city had one church, any other thought would be an argument from silence.....Frank



 2009/1/17 19:35









 Re:

Quote....

"But I think Philologos has given a very satisfying answer to your query. I concur with what he shared."

I am glad that you are satisfied brother
:-) One man's satisfaction is another mans frustration :-) .........Frank

 2009/1/17 19:37
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
"The Church of God." The word "churches," is used 35 times. In those 35 times it makes reference to seven names. Judea, Galatia, Asia, Galilee, Samaria, Cililcia and Macedonia. Every one of these is either a province or a region. There is not one example of "churches," used in reference to a city. If we are to just use the Biblical source, then it seems clear. Each city had one church, any other thought would be an argument from silence.....Frank


Are you advocating the Witness Lee position?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/17 20:16Profile
Questor
Member



Joined: 2008/12/25
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:



Acts 13
1Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.


[b]2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.[/b]



3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

5And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.




Minister = To serve


They [b]ministered[/b] fasting, praying, and speaking to a local assembly, and the Holy Spirit intervened, telling them to seperate out Barnabas and Saul for other work.

Every time I see the word minister, I see 'taking care of'!

How do we take care of God?

And if we are not clear on this matter, how can we minister/serve to 'the CHURCH'?

Only the Holy Spirit can minister to 'THE CHURCH'.

And none of us should dare to mention 'THE CHURCH' in a critical way, nor any other Church or assembly anywhere.

If we cannot minister to them, they are outside our hands, and we should not dare to speak otherwise.

Q

 2009/1/17 20:29Profile





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