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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
appolus on 2009/1/15 14:37:53
If I understand Ron's objection correctly, it seems that your main objection is someone referring to a collection of saints as "the church." So, for instance, it is ok for saints from around the world to gather and listen to, , Paul Washer talk about indictments, as long as he does not direct his Indictments at "The Church?" So the question would be, just who was he talking too and what authority did he have to share what he did?.....Frank


Paul Washer's message was interesting in that he began to try to address the criticisms of the church. It is a little time since I listened to it but I think he objected to blanket criticisms on the basis that The Church is the bride of Christ and is alive and well. I have some sympathy with that as long as we do not identify the bride of Christ with the visible church on earth (in America or anywhere else).

Paul Washer has authority to share with whoever will listen to him. He has no authority to share with me because of who he is in other people's eyes or in his own; that is not intended as a criticism of Paul Washer. I have some issues with Paul Washer's message but not on that basis and I have posted links on my own website to his message here on SI.

Those who give Paul Washer a world-wide platform have a tremendous responsibility. Again, I am not criticising PW but just drawing attention that if the purveyors of porn or fascism have a responsibility for the effects of their publishings and sales, surely the owners of websites do too. Greg carries a tremendous responsibility before God for what he allows on this website; I hope we will remember that as we pray for him. James says be not many teachers, knowing we shall receive a greater judgment. I am sure that should be drawn to the attention of publishers too.

But suppose someone who is not Paul Washer presumes to address 'the Church in America', who gave him this authority and to whom is he accountable. A rather cynical Protestant once confided in a Roman Catholic by saying 'I envy your system; at least you only have one Pope'. The Pope believes that whatever he says 'ex cathedra' he says to the whole church on earth; what arrogant nonsense. It is no less arrogant or nonsense when a Protestant attempts to do the same.

I have heard precocious teenagers declare that what the church needs is... I have also heard them take on the spirits of Islam! We need a little dose of sanity here. I am not saying that wisdom comes with age, but a few grey hairs usually mean the owner has experienced a little more of life.. and even of church life.

If I hear someone say or pray 'we confess Lord that the church has abandoned the Bible', I cannot say 'amen' because I am part of the church and I have not abandoned the Bible. If I someone say or pray 'we confess Lord that we have not waited upon you' I cannot say 'amen' because I am part of a local church which has and does wait on God. These generalisations are unwise and untrue. Usually when someone prays these kinds of things I just remain silent but there are times, and this thread has really been one of them, when I feel the need to say 'hold on there, brother, is that me you are talking about?'


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/16 7:26Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
RobertW on 2009/1/15 15:58:22
By way of analogy my Grandmother used to have a concept that when some discipline was needed among the kids and no one would 'fess-up' she would spank all the children to, "Get the right one." Also it is not equitable or healthy to treat the whole group for a problem that only a select group needed. The Lord Jesus clearly dealt with the 7 churches individually and not as a group.


This had me chuckling out loud. Having raised 7 children, not churches, myself I know that you cannot generalise nor give out standard punishments. You have to treat each child as an individual; it is the way the Lord dealt with the churches of the Revelation.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/16 7:30Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 A healthy dose of reality.

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Paul Washer's message was interesting in that he began to try to address the criticisms of the church. It is a little time since I listened to it but I think he objected to blanket criticisms on the basis that The Church is the bride of Christ and is alive and well. I have some sympathy with that as long as we do not identify the bride of Christ with the visible church on earth (in America or anywhere else).

Paul Washer has authority to share with whoever will listen to him. He has no authority to share with me because of who he is in other people's eyes or in his own; that is not intended as a criticism of Paul Washer. I have some issues with Paul Washer's message but not on that basis and I have posted links on my own website to his message here on SI.

Those who give Paul Washer a world-wide platform have a tremendous responsibility. Again, I am not criticising PW but just drawing attention that if the purveyors of porn or fascism have a responsibility for the effects of their publishings and sales, surely the owners of websites do too. Greg carries a tremendous responsibility before God for what he allows on this website; I hope we will remember that as we pray for him. James says be not many teachers, knowing we shall receive a greater judgment. I am sure that should be drawn to the attention of publishers too.

But suppose someone who is not Paul Washer presumes to address 'the Church in America', who gave him this authority and to whom is he accountable. A rather cynical Protestant once confided in a Roman Catholic by saying 'I envy your system; at least you only have one Pope'. The Pope believes that whatever he says 'ex cathedra' he says to the whole church on earth; what arrogant nonsense. It is no less arrogant or nonsense when a Protestant attempts to do the same.

I have heard precocious teenagers declare that what the church needs is... I have also heard them take on the spirits of Islam! We need a little dose of sanity here. I am not saying that wisdom comes with age, but a few grey hairs usually mean the owner has experienced a little more of life.. and even of church life.

If I hear someone say or pray 'we confess Lord that the church has abandoned the Bible', I cannot say 'amen' because I am part of the church and I have not abandoned the Bible. If I someone say or pray 'we confess Lord that we have not waited upon you' I cannot say 'amen' because I am part of a local church which has and does wait on God. These generalisations are unwise and untrue. Usually when someone prays these kinds of things I just remain silent but there are times, and this thread has really been one of them, when I feel the need to say 'hold on there, brother, is that me you are talking about?'

Mr Bailey I would like to shake your hand one day, though we see some things differently this has got to be one you best posts (and there are allot).

rgds,


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2009/1/16 8:17Profile
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: did not know where exactly where to place this

Roberts blanket spanking had me laughing too, because often times when I speak in churches I may be a tad bit disturbed about some report I hear or read of some some other part of the country or world and that often influences what I say or how I say it, so I have learned to shut out all media days before I speak and get alone and quiet before God.



Quote:
You have to treat each child as an individual; it is the way the Lord dealt with the churches of the Revelation.



That has made me remember something that happened along time ago. I had just came out of a camp meeting where the presence of God was exceptionally strong, as my family and I was leaving Ohio, I had to go to Indiana than it was back home, I coasted through a stop sign. I felt so convicted and grieved over it but being in a hurry I drove on. I supose that over the next 3 years I came to some complete stops and some coasting stops, but than at a time when I was flat out broke and headed home from Mich. I coasted through a stop sign and was stopped, ticketed, and lectured by an Ohio state highway patrolman! Immediately I rembered that deep sense of grief the three years earlier and the Lord spoke to my heart,
"I declare the end from the begining". I learned a lesson on that day not only about the why s of God but also His ways, or at least a glimps.

I think we get the general impression that God wants us to be/do/say/act/ a certain way based on how we interpet or hear His written Word, or what wwe know of Him from tradition or possibly some outside influence, church preachers teachers etc... but when I saw the Lord, His holiness was unapproachable and He appeared as pure, it took me several years to understand that His pureness was in part that He does or says nothing out of SELF INTEREST. He is completely 100% wanting our best, "I know the plans I have for you...."


_________________
D.Miller

 2009/1/16 9:55Profile









 Re:

Quote..


"For, Headquarters in the New Covenant is the right hand of God in Heaven. It might have been easy for the early church to look to Jerusalem as their headquarters, since the apostles were there. But the Lord quickly demolished that idea by speaking directly to those who were waiting upon Him, and ministering unto Him, at Antioch. And none of the twelve were there."

Amen AD. The authority comes from the right hand of God. To reject all who claim to speak to "the church," because of the many abuses, would be akin to rejecting the sign gifts because of the counterfiet. The pentecostal theologian, Fee, said that the truth invariably lies in the "radical center." If you have been hurt, or caught up in condemning, and the Lord gives you a revelation, oftentimes that causes one to swing in the other direction. If indeed someone like Paul Washer has authority to address a crowd of people from many different congregations(this authority being from the right hand of God)then it is legitimate. The only problem from that point is for the organizers of such a gathering. I am not sure, but it seems, if we follow Robert and Ron's logic, then these gathering themsleves would be illegitimate. And just for the record, I simply used Paul Washer as an example, it was not to legitimize the man himself, although I personally agreed with his main points and aslo have it on my own website.

I would just ask the question, if the logic of this thread is followed to its conclusion, then there would be no gatherings of different denominations and church's, because no one would have the right or authority to address such a crowd. And if gatherings of different churches and denominations are legitimate, and they can be addressed by speakers to whom it is very possible "have a word," from God, then is the point one of semantics as to how we describe the gathering?.......Frank

 2009/1/16 11:25
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Quote..


If indeed someone... has authority to address a crowd of people from many different congregations(this authority being from the right hand of God)then it is legitimate. The only problem from that point is for the organizers of such a gathering. I am not sure, but it seems, if we follow Robert and Ron's logic, then these gathering themsleves would be illegitimate.



Hi, Frank.

I'm glad you say, "IF..."

"IF any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God."

There would be more fear and trembling in all of us if we laid that to heart.

...My whole point in the earlier thread was that the Holy Spirit is the vicar (representative) of Christ in the earth, and He alone has the authority to lead and send his servants as He is directed to do so from the right hand of God.

I've been very appreciative of the emphasis on the autonomy of the local churches that Philologos has been brave enough to bring forth on this thread. And I thank him for doing so. May we awaken to this. It's a perspective that has been largely lost in our day. A return to it will bring the churches a good distance along the way to the finish line.

In situations where God sends his man from his own right hand to address "the church," that man must have a word that applies to the whole church.

But I can't imagine God lumping those seven churches in The Revelation into one church called the church of Asia, and addressing them all together.

Can you imagine the suffering church in Smyrna sitting there together with the others, and hearing, "I have somewhat against thee?" No, God had no censure for them. Nor the church at Philadelphia.

Can you imagine the church of Laodicea sitting there in the congregation with the saints from Philadelphia, and hearing, "Thou hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name?"

This, I think, is Philologos' main issue.

Of course there are matters that pertain to the whole church, and God at times speaks to the whole church.

And, in fact, I don't think it's wrong to grieve over things we see happeing in other areas of "the church" out there these days. We Christians love God, and love His honour, and these things hurt us. We just naturally are interested in what's going on. Spiritually naturally, I mean.

So nobody is trying to be a sort of "thought police" on what Christians are feeling about it all, in their great concern for the glory of Christ's Name.

In fact, God called the man with the writer's inkhorn to set a mark on the foreheads of the men who grieved for the abominations they saw in His City.

But the thing is, if I recall the first post on this thread correctly, the concern was relative to the responsibility of DOING something about it all.

This is the thing. Primarily, this is the concern of the Vicar of the Church (the Holy Spirit). And each one of us must be in such relationship with Him that we recognize clearly when it is He who is speaking to us and directing our praying, or our doing... or if it's just our own zeal and presumption.

Otherwise, have we really distanced ourselves from the stand taken by "the Bishop of Rome," who has convinced the whole "Catholic" church worldwide, that his bishoprick oversees all?

What cheek.

This is the whole point. There's such a beauty in this whole picture of the different Lampstands in different places, autonomous local churches ministering unto the Lord, doing as He bids them do, and leaving, trusting, the keeping of the whole to Him.

It is a beautiful yoke, this, where it is promised we will find rest unto our souls.

I think of the post earlier in which the brother mentioned the psalm, "Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty, neither do I excercise myself in great matters, or in things to high for me..."

That's the Son of God Himself speaking, who Himself is meek and lowly of heart... minding His own business, speaking and doing only what He saw the Father speaking and doing.

We ourselves are called to take, and need to take, that same yoke upon us.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/16 13:11Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
appolus on 2009/1/16 13:25:38
I would just ask the question, if the logic of this thread is followed to its conclusion, then there would be no gatherings of different denominations and church's, because no one would have the right or authority to address such a crowd. And if gatherings of different churches and denominations are legitimate, and they can be addressed by speakers to whom it is very possible "have a word," from God, then is the point one of semantics as to how we describe the gathering?.......Frank


Yes, there would because the local church is not the only forum for the saints to gather or be instructed but it is the only unit of responsibility, biblically. If I followed what you think is 'my logic' there would be no missionary societies, bible colleges or conventions.

The people that stage these conferences, however, will be answerable to God for the utterances that are made under their auspices. Just as the 'elders' of this site have made it plain that they will not allow self-styled prophets to declare 'thus saith the Lord through these pages'. In the local assembly the prophets are to be judged by the prophets but in this electronic platform the web owner must judge them and not be afraid to ban them.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/16 14:31Profile









 Re:

Quote...

In situations where God sends his man from his own right hand to address "the church," that man must have a word that applies to the whole church.

But I can't imagine God lumping those seven churches in The Revelation into one church called the church of Asia, and addressing them all together.Can you imagine the suffering church in Smyrna sitting there together with the others, and hearing, "I have somewhat against thee?" No, God had no censure for them. Nor the church at Philadelphia.Can you imagine the church of Laodicea sitting there in the congregation with the saints from Philadelphia, and hearing, "Thou hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name?"

Just a few thoughts on the above comments, again following what I believe to be the logic and I know brother that you will correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that what Jesus spoke to the church's in Asia, through John, did not have individual and universal application to all of Christendom? That it only applied to each individual church? It seems to me, that the Biblical example is the Holy Spirit, speaking through John, in a role as Prophet, to the whole Church down through the ages.

And just to be correct, I am not talking about "self styled prophets," as I am sure almost all on this forum would reject. I am talking about the genuine prophet, the one who speaks where and when and to whom the Lord directs HIm to speak, whether that be to an individual church, or the "whole Church," to use your own phrase. I just want to be clear that we agree that God speaks to men, gives them words to speak, and they speak. That indeed, there is still Prophets on the earth. Perhaps we do not?........Frank

 2009/1/16 17:37
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Are you saying that what Jesus spoke to the church's in Asia, through John, did not have individual and universal application to all of Christendom? That it only applied to each individual church? It seems to me, that the Biblical example is the Holy Spirit, speaking through John, in a role as Prophet, to the whole Church down through the ages.

...I just want to be clear that we agree that God speaks to men, gives them words to speak, and they speak. That indeed, there is still Prophets on the earth. Perhaps we do not?........Frank



We agree. God speaks to men; there are still prophets on the earth. And apostles, too.

As to what you ask about whether what Jesus spoke to the churches in Asia has "individual and universal application to all of Christendom... down through the ages" ...Of course it does. You might as well ask that of the whole Bible.

But Jesus said that when the Comforter was come, He would "receive of Mine, and shew it unto you."

So the Holy Spirit speaks specifically to the churches what they need, when they need it. He does not speak "of Himself," that is, from Himself, but only what the Son of God in Heaven speaks. And what does that translate out to?

"He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Jesus said, concerning the whole book of The Revelation, "I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches" (Rev. 22.16).

He didn't say, "in the church." There are different aspects of truth that apply to different churches at different times. And no doubt certain things that apply to The Church as a whole. It's very comforting to know it's all in the hands of the Holy Spirit to give what's needed when it's needed, whether comfort, or chastening... or whatever.

...I don't want to get bogged down trying to analyze this particular question, if you understand what I am saying. I am finding myself very moved about this aspect of truth concerning the different churches, the different lampstands, companies of saints in different places, with a few elders in their midst guiding... each church being individually responsible to the Throne of Heaven. This is a powerful reality. It breaks that "contol thing" in man, takes it entirely out of his hands (and out of the hands of the god of this world, if I may say).

There is something so awesome about this, something of great spiritual beauty. It completely broadsides much of the "structure" of church as we know it in our day. That Babylon thing is completely demolished by this.

And in my own case, I am asking the Lord to help me see it more clearly through His own eyes. I'm getting the impression it is of great interest to Him, great importance to Him, is very precious to Him. I want to see it as He sees it.

And so I hope what He is saying and showing us doesn't get lost on us. I hope we can recognize that He is speaking to us, and gracing us with revelation.

Ron B. said earlier that revelation should bring us to prayer (something along that line). In other words, we don't just take that revelation for granted. We get seeking God about it, so that it becomes Light we walk in, not just doctrine we know.

Abraham, whenever he had a fresh revelation from God, he built an altar there. He didn't just carry on business as usual. He saw there would be a cost to this. That he would need to present himself afresh to God a living sacrifice.

There is a danger concerning revelation. A snare. We see the revelation. Do we see the snare? For if we don't walk in the revelation being shown us, if we don't build that altar there, as Abraham did, we may think we have light. But it could well be our light is darkness to us.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/16 20:19Profile









 Re:

Dear brother AD...We agree on much. In fact the following quote from your reply is a good example.......

"There is something so awesome about this, something of great spiritual beauty. It completely broadsides much of the "structure" of church as we know it in our day. That Babylon thing is completely demolished by this."

I would just ask, what "Babylon thing?"

I too have no time for the structure of church as we know it. You are preaching to the choir. I am an ex-Catholic who knows first hand all about power structures of men. Sadly, I have seen this in the denominational world, the non-denominational world , the pentecostal world, this mystery religion structure where the power flows through one priest, one minister, one pastor , one man, in some pentecostal circles it has devolved into a form of gnosticism.

Yet, and I could be wrong, even calling out this "Babylon thing,' would be considered meddling under the construct which is being discussed. I liked this quote from your reply.......

"It's very comforting to know it's all in the hands of the Holy Spirit to give what's needed when it's needed, whether comfort, or chastening... or whatever."

The Holy Spirit speaks truth. When the word of grace is spoken, in a church or at a gathering of churches, those that have ears to hear will hear what they need to hear. God is simply God. If you need rebuking that is what you will hear, if you need comforted you will be comforted. He is not angry one night and gentle the next, He just is. And when truth is spoken it does its work. There is no danger of the Word causing offence because it is misdirected. If someone is hurt or offended by a word that is not appropriate for them or directed at them, they have a problem which they need to deal with. If we use Paul Washer as an example it may be helpful, just since his name is already out there. When he adressed several thousand Baptist youth from many different church' several years ago, and warned them that what they have may not be salvation, would that be an offense to someone who was genuinly saved in the crowd? When Jesus adresses a wicked and adulterous generation, would that be an offence to those who did not seek after a sign? The Holy Spirit goes before His word and prepares the hearts of the hearers. When the Holy Spirit speaks through His people, it has a purpose and it hits its mark. It penetrates the hearts of the hearers, sometimes there are three thousand saved, sometimes the one who the word is spoken through is stoned, either way, it hits its mark. As long as we have Him, as long as it all starts with His presence, then we have nothing to worry about......Frank

 2009/1/16 22:19





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