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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

I have been thinking about what Carter Conlon said at the Greenock conference about our seeking revival. He said ' When God comes, He will not come to confirm our agendas or our traditions'. The point being that we must seek God for Himself and allow Him to work in His way. If we expect God to conform to our tradition, then we will miss it.

I have recently read Colin Peckham's book on the Lewis Revival (Sounds from Heaven) and what is very clear when you read the accounts is that although there was a very formal (and in some cases rigid) church structure in the form of The Church of Scotland and The Free Church, when God came down the meetings became spontaneous and a natural response of sinners responding in holy fear repentance and saints ministering to the Lord in prayer and worship all day and all night. The 'normal' church services were a small fraction of importance. It was meeting in homes afterwards, praising God on the road and in the street and at work. Whenever saints were together then God moved through 'whosoever'.

My point is that our pressing need is to seek God and have that personal and corporate revival. When this happens then God will come down and HE will build HIS church His way. So who is reponsible? Ultimateley God is in building HIS church, but WE are responsible to seek Him and respond to Him.


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Dave

 2009/1/14 4:36Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
ADisciple on 2009/1/13 19:26:31
Surely this is what Paul meant in Eph. 4, saying God gave the ministries for the perfecting(equipping) of the saints unto the work of the ministry... That is, unto the saints' work of the ministry. This-- every single saint being equipped and provisioned to minister vitally and effectively in the church which is His Body-- it's THIS that is the ministry that edifies the body "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."


this is a key truth and one which the underlying Greek brings out strongly. Darby has captured the sense well...

[color=0033FF]for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ;[/color]


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/14 4:55Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
ADisciple on 2009/1/14 1:40:38
Isn't this saying that, as we make our focus not the answer we so desperately need, but rather, ministering unto the Lord... the answer we seek will be the spontaneous "by-product" of that, or the outflow of that.


YES. exactly so!


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/14 4:57Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I have been thinking about what Carter Conlon said at the Greenock conference about our seeking revival. He said ' When God comes, He will not come to confirm our agendas or our traditions'. The point being that we must seek God for Himself and allow Him to work in His way. If we expect God to conform to our tradition, then we will miss it.


I think this was one of the most significant things said at the Greenock Conference.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/14 4:58Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:

I have been thinking about what Carter Conlon said at the Greenock conference about our seeking revival. He said ' When God comes, He will not come to confirm our agendas or our traditions'. The point being that we must seek God for Himself and allow Him to work in His way. If we expect God to conform to our tradition, then we will miss it.



It was a very unpopular thing to say, but I also think it was one of the soberest truths I heard at the conference. It is also a truth that will stand the test of time, I think. I believe the Lord answered with a tremendous outpouring of His Spirit during the altar service. When we are ready to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches and leave off of wanting to back seat drive a revival- God has already, in my mind, shown us He will answer. I am afraid though that what God is wanting to send may not be what some want to see; and I'm afraid that is a fight no one can win.

When Phillip preached the people [i]received the word gladly[/i] and with a readiness to respond. What happened? A great 'revival' broke out. Were the Pharisees blessed? No. They were so wrapped up in their tradition that they did not know God's blessing when it came. They rejected it in fact. And it all ties into this thread as the ultimate question; who is in authority? Will we follow God or are we expecting Him to follow us?



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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/14 9:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
He said ' When God comes, He will not come to confirm our agendas or our traditions'. The point being that we must seek God for Himself and allow Him to work in His way.



At the 19:10 mark of [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZlSxv6AqmM&sdig=1]Q & A Session Part 2[/url] David Guzik states that there is a danger to expecting God to do in the present what He has done in the past. The thought being, that we need God to send the revival that [i]His counsel[/i] deems that we need. We need the word of [u]His grace[/u] that is able to build us up and give us an inheritance among the sanctified (Acts 20).


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/14 15:55Profile









 Re:

Quote.....

"My point is that our pressing need is to seek God and have that personal and corporate revival. When this happens then God will come down and HE will build HIS church His way. So who is reponsible? Ultimateley God is in building HIS church, but WE are responsible to seek Him and respond to Him."

Amennnn !!!! The seekers transcend denominations and church government.........Frank

 2009/1/14 18:05
iamhis
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 26
North Carolina

 Re:

If you define the word "church" you will find it means "called out". The church is made up of people not of wood and plaster and steel. God is not looking to dwell in a building but a heart. If we would get beyond looking at what we can do and start looking at what Christ has already done I believe that will cause us to do what God has called us out to do. That is to worship HIM in one mind and one accord. God established HIS plans for HIS body on the day of Pentecost and has never changed HIS mind about who is in charge. It is GODS good pleasure to give unto us the KINGDOM yet we grow satisfied and wait on someone else to pray us happy or sing us feel good songs when it is a individual walk we must take. What did Isiah say when the VOICE cried out who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Individual to do GODS will. If we want more of God we have to pray, we have to cry out, we have to stand up to the devil and tell him to get behind me satan, if we want life then we must go to MASTER for HE is looking to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty to pour out HIMSELF upon those that want HIM more then their necessary food. America made their choice when they chose to legalize abortion, take GOD out of the public schools, say homosexuality is OK. They want to take GOD out of everything and what has the body of CHRIST done to prevent it. Are we sighing and crying about the abominations that are all around us. LORD help us to look to the hills from which cometh our help, our help cometh from the LORD. The body of Christ needs to work while it is day for the night time cometh. We need JESUS more than we have ever needed HIM before. One mind and one accord.

 2009/1/14 22:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Heydave on 2009/1/14 6:36:08
My point is that our pressing need is to seek God and have that personal and corporate revival. When this happens then God will come down and HE will build HIS church His way. So who is reponsible? Ultimateley God is in building HIS church, but WE are responsible to seek Him and respond to Him.


Thank you for bringing us back to the original question! :-D

But responsible for what? There is a mental construct among Christians known as 'the church' or 'the church in our day' or 'the church in America' or some such label. I have spent part of the time since we began this thread re-reading the earliest non-bible records of history. They have no such construct. There is passionate concern for individuals and a willingness to reach out from one local church to another. We see in it the letter of Polycarp to Philippi and of Clement to Corinth. There is no trace of the 'church in our day' construct.

Those early Christians had a wonderful way of writing to each other which can be found in many of their writings. I will give a couple of examples.

[color=0033FF]Polycarp and the presbyters (elders) with him to the church of God that sojourns at Philippi: may mercy and peace from God Almighty and Jesus Christ our Saviour be yours in abundance.[/color]

Polycarp is a 'high profile' Christian; no doubt a 'leader' in those days: he had sat at the feet of John the apostle. But there is no sense of any hierarchical order and he 'comes alongside' the church at Philippi and does not seek to take any responsibility for 'speaking into it'. Nor does he presume that the conditions of the church in Smryna, where he lived, will be replicated in Philippi. His respect for the saints at Philippi breathes through every line of his letter. In section 3 he writes:

[color=0033FF]I am writing you these comments about righteousness, brothers, not on my own initiative but because you invited me to do so...[/color]

Or take the letter of Clement in Rome to the church at Corinth. Although this is commonly known as 1st Clement, the name Clement does not appear in the letter. Instead the letter begins like this...

[color=0033FF]The church of God which sojourns in Rome to the church of God which sojourns in Corinth greeting, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. May grace and peace from almighty God through Jesus Christ be yours in abundance.[/color]

I am always moved by the simplicity of these opening lines from these two ancient letters. I am moved by the way they regarded themselves as 'sojourners'. It is the biblical word [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3941&t=KJV]strangers: Strong's G3941 - paroikos[/url]. They had a deep sense of 'passing through'; this world was not their home. The church at Corinth was a band of people who were 'just passing through' Corinth and who for the time being were gathered together as the 'called out ones'; the elect or 'the church'.

The reason I began this theme was to challenge the notion that anyone can presume to tell us what 'the problem with the church of today is...'. I am not advocating a change in church government but in church understanding. Inevitably that will have an impact on church government, but I am certainly not suggesting that the answer to our needs can be met in 're-arranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic'.

However, there are patterns of church government which will more readily facilitate a free moving of the Spirit and give him easier 'access' to the saints.

My original thesis was this, that the unit of responsibility, biblically, is the local church and that to assume a responsibility wider than this is extra-biblical, false and counterproductive.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/15 4:38Profile









 Re:

Quote....

"The reason I began this theme was to challenge the notion that anyone can presume to tell us what 'the problem with the church of today is...'. I am not advocating a change in church government but in church understanding."

I am not sure how this addresses the quote ....

Heydave on 2009/1/14 6:36:08
My point is that our pressing need is to seek God and have that personal and corporate revival. When this happens then God will come down and HE will build HIS church His way. So who is reponsible? Ultimateley God is in building HIS church, but WE are responsible to seek Him and respond to Him.

Is it possible that it is no more complicated than "seeking," God? ........Frank


 2009/1/15 8:43





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