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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ron's: Does this show the respect that elders had in one place for those in another? Does this show the variety of patterns of authority even at the turn of the 1st century?



I think it is important to note that within the synagogues of the Jews there was also a power struggle taking place at this time. The issue of authority came up among the Pharisees that I think may have had 'some' effect on the way the early churches viewed authority.

In Deuteronomy 30:12 the Jews found a passage with which they could overrule once and for all the prophetic voice of God in the lives of the Jews. Paul also quotes part of this verse in Romans 10. Essentially what the Jews did was say- [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_in_Heaven]"It is NOT in Heaven." (wiki)[/url] This meant that the authority to determine the direction of the lives of the Jews rested not in the hand of God, but with the Rabbi's.

When I studied with the Messianic Jews they noted that Rabbinic Judaism reminded them very much of Catholicism. But in reality Rabbinic Judaism took the ultra cessasionist view long before Rome. So I wonder how this was influencing the churches as this line of doctrine was developing?

I think it is more than coincidence that both the Jews and the Roman Catholics essentially ended up doing exactly what Jesus told them [u]not[/u] to do- to be called 'father' or 'rabbi' (Master) (Mathew 23:9,10). So we see then that a 'shift' took place in how both the churches and the Jews view authority. For the Jews the Rabbi's can overrule a prophet, an audible voice from God, reserve the right to interpret the scriptures and dreams that a person may have. They have locked the prophetic influence of God totally out and made the Rabbi's past and present the authority.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/13 8:01Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/3
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 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
How, other than prayer can we get this process going? Having recently been in the UK and a renewed zeal to see the word of the Lord manifest in our gatherings, I'm concerned that with time the pressing sense of seeing things change may diminish. I felt like God spoke to us in Greenock and I need to realize how that is to play out in my own experience. I have the matter on my heart and before the Lord, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety also. I just think things need to get going. :-?



...I really do think we are cast on God for this.

We greatly need the very thing that has been much talked of on this thread: "God, and the word of His grace."

I don't know that there is any other way than to continue looking to Him, continue seeking Him, waiting upon Him, and anticipating that He will continue to be about His Father's business, and will communicate that to us, so that our doing is nothing less than His own doing. "We then as workers together WITH Him..."

If your feeling of the "need to get going" is genuinely the urgency of the Spirit of God (and not just that restlessness of human zeal) then there should come a "quickening" as to what He is doing. There will be a sense of "Life" about it, bearing witness that this step (whatever it may be) is springing from the Lord.

I do think we are in an hour when we may anticipate a new illumination as to His will, at least among those who are making of their lives a total burnt offering.

His message to the church at Ephesus was one calling for repentance, and a return to first love... and first works.

"Repent, and do the first works..."

AD




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Allan Halton

 2009/1/13 13:02Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Brothertom on 2009/1/12 19:54:33
It is a Greek word that is what it's participles mean . It is NOT a mystical uninterpretable term. It is clear, and simple...and was not meant to muddy the prophesy with something uninterpretable, like a proper name [bailey..?] that could be imagined to mean most anything.


Hi Tom
How familiar are you with New Testament Greek? You just can't do this with words.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/13 14:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
RebeccaF on 2009/1/13 9:16:05
Certain men of God met at Antioch to send out men to preach the gospel and establish churches (Acts 13). Here is God's method:



I do respect David Wilkerson but this is a misunderstanding. It is a presumption that they met in order to get their marching orders. They did not; they met to 'serve' the Lord. To give him time and worship and out of that time of intimacy came a 'word of His grace' which started the whole thing off.

They did not meet with an agenda of any kind; they simply gathered together into God's presence and God took it from there.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/13 14:13Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ron's: They did not; they met to 'serve' the Lord. To give him time and worship and out of that time of intimacy came a 'word of His grace' which started the whole thing off.



Ron, in the UK as we went from fellowship to fellowship there was a willingness to worship the Lord in a variety of ways and songs. In some places 3 different song books were distributed to allow for a variety (Wesley hymns up to today). What can be done to foster a willingness to sing a variety of songs? I see this as a real obstacle in many circles because there is a false dichotomy between new and old.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/13 16:47Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
RobertW on 2009/1/13 18:47:42
What can be done...



There's a familiar question. ;-)

I was thinking about some earlier comments on prayer along the same lines. I am just back from our Prayer Meeting and this thread came to mind again.

I was thinking of these two passages.

[color=0033FF]and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years,* who did not depart from the temple, but served >God with fastings and prayers night and day. Luke 2:37[/color]

and this one..

[color=0033FF]As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. Act 13:2[/color]

It is this notion of prayer as 'serving God' and 'ministering to the Lord' that captured my attention. This is the other wing to 'the word of His grac'; these are not prayer agendas or prayer lists but men and women 'waiting upon God' and praying as they are led.

This can begin in our 'closet'. Not working through a prayer list but listening as much as speaking and praying as he directs. I have always been taken by the phrase when God told a man that 'Abraham was a prophet and he shall pray for you'. Real prayer, like prophecy, begins with revelation.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/13 17:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
RebeccaF on 2009/1/13 9:16:05
Certain men of God met at Antioch to send out men to preach the gospel and establish churches (Acts 13). Here is God's method:



I do respect David Wilkerson but this is a misunderstanding. It is a presumption that they met in order to get their marching orders. They did not; they met to 'serve' the Lord. To give him time and worship and out of that time of intimacy came a 'word of His grace' which started the whole thing off.

They did not meet with an agenda of any kind; they simply gathered together into God's presence and God took it from there.



That could be it really doesn't say. We could agree though that they definately were fasting, praying and seeking God for something.

I know for one thing I don't get on sermon index for lack of nothing better to do. We all meet here for the most part because we want revival. If I am at a revival conference and I am fasting and praying and like Hannah, even though it's not obvious what I am seeking God for God knows and answers. Typically you don't fast, pray and seek God unless it is for something.

Here the Holy Ghost just said to seperate them. God doesn't always give you a huge list of things to do. He requires we act on what He gives us and it may just be one simple request.


Acts 13
1Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

[b]2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.[/b]

3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

5And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.


 2009/1/13 17:16
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Joined: 2007/2/3
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 Re:

Quote:

Heydave wrote:
I am thinking of men like Tozer, Spurgeon, Lloyd Jones, etc. Also men of today such as David Wilkerson.



I too have a great respect for these men, and others, who have ministered in what in our day is now a dying order.

I would not let an ill word about them be found on my tongue.

But I know what I am going to give myself to continue seeking.

You read in different places in Scripture that when God has things in place according to His order (which He alone brings into being, with His sanctified), then His glory comes down and rests in His House (2 Chr. 5.13,14; 1 Kings 8.11, Ex. 40. 33-35).

"...The cloud filled the house of the LORD, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God" (1 Kings 5.11).

"...And in His temple doth every one speak of His glory" (Ps. 29.9). That is, in His temple, "every whit of it uttereth glory," as my margin says.

Meaning to say that the home of God's glory is His House, His temple, His people. God's intention is that every single one of us from the least to the greatest be filled with His glory, and be a unique expression of His glory, and He will not, cannot, rest, till that is accomplished. "Every whit of it..."

Surely this is what Paul meant in Eph. 4, saying God gave the ministries for the perfecting(equipping) of the saints unto the work of the ministry... That is, unto the saints' work of the ministry. This-- every single saint being equipped and provisioned to minister vitally and effectively in the church which is His Body-- it's THIS that is the ministry that edifies the body "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

And all the true-hearted elders will be happy to be on their faces unable to stand, rejoicing when this kind of expression of "church" comes about.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/13 17:26Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
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 Re:

I know a brother who prays very little, mostly he sits and waits on the Lord (hours at a time), he puts it like an eagle waiting on that one air stream that will lift him upwards, I like that.
It seems such a hard concept to look at prayer as ministering unto the Lord with fasting. It would almost seem as if God sees our input (communion/communication) as a ministry from us to Him. Would that be an accurate characterization?


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D.Miller

 2009/1/13 22:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

dohzman wrote:
I know a brother who prays very little, mostly he sits and waits on the Lord (hours at a time), he puts it like an eagle waiting on that one air stream that will lift him upwards, I like that.
It seems such a hard concept to look at prayer as ministering unto the Lord with fasting. It would almost seem as if God sees our input (communion/communication) as a ministry from us to Him. Would that be an accurate characterization?



I like that, too. (About waiting for that one airstream that bears us upwards.) This is such a good word.

"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted..."

Isn't this saying that, as we make our focus not the answer we so desperately need, but rather, ministering unto the Lord... the answer we seek will be the spontaneous "by-product" of that, or the outflow of that.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/13 23:40Profile





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